Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[GhostofDempsey]

No I haven't, nobody has asked me to .Would you like the site of the proposed Johnson v Langford and Mcvey fights? The ,promoter? Johnsons purses for the two fights? How about the promoters statement as to why he pulled out of staging them? Johnson twice signed to defend against Jeannette the location was not of his choosing it was the promoters, who were based there and since Jeannette was popular in NY it made sound business sense. Johnson was 35 when he defended against 26years old Jim Johnson the challenger was no world beater but he drew with the best of them and occasionaly beat them.Was he any worse a challenger than Jack Munroe,John Finnegan, Bill Squires, Jem Roche or a hundred others?

I own and have read several of the books on the topic. Thoroughly researched books that outline Johnson's shenanigans when it came to agreeing to fights and then moving the goal posts, as he did with the proposed fights in Australia. He agreed to $50K to fight Langford and McVey, and then moved the goal post by insisting on $15K forfeit to be posted in a U.S. bank versus an Australian bank. Johnson has a long history of agreeing to fight someone from one side of his mouth while simultaneously finding a back door to get out of it. He not only ducked Langford, McVey and Jeannette while champion, he ducked other black contenders as well, always having an excuse at the ready. Kid Cotton was a former sparring partner of Johnson, and equal in terms of size and strength. Defeated some of the same opponents Jack faced. Johnson would have nothing to do with him, as well as several other black contenders.

Look at the list of no-hopers Jim Johnson beat before getting his shot at Johnson...Jim Esson, Kid Jackson 2x, Bob Scanlon, Gustave Marthuin. No reason why Johnson would take that fight in favor of McVey, Langford or Jeannette who were clearly better fighters.

[Ivich]

- - It can be assumed poor steak was munched up wif a plate of fava beans and French Chardonnay many moons ago.

Primary sources ain't infallible if you understand the Liquored up generation of sports writers then. Now we got Loony Teddy still searching for his email proving Manny was on PEDs, and Oscar, Ring, Crack Daddy & l'l crack daddy jr still searching for his Olympic drug testing Certificate.

We still don't have an original copy of Clay/Cooper extended rest time that Dundee alleges extended at least one extra minute if not 2-3. All existent fight film has been scrubbed or spliced.

For the longest time Burns vs JJohnson was listed as a TKO until experts figured fight film had been spliced up out of sequence, and Johnson/Willard temp ringside was 120degrees when the weather data shows 85 degrees, all on top of JJ's over the top how he threw that fight and fanciful autobio.

Face the music, U muddled the Johnson vs Johnson and Langford vs Jeannette fight dates at very least. Maybe put on some Big Boy Pants and try harder.

The Clay v Cooper fight was televised later in its entirety. I've seen it several times.Dundee was full of it,he didn't get away with anything r e the glove.What he did get away with was having an assistant crack smelling salts under Ali's nose,they had been banned in the UK for some time by then.The official verdict on the Burns fight has gone from TKO ,to police stopped fight and back to TKO,similar to Johnson's win over Jeffries. I was in Havana in April a few years ago the temperature was in the high 80's but the humidity was murderous. I was showering and changing clothes several times a day and I was just strolling about.Johnson was in that ring for nearly 2 hours fighting a giant at the age of 37 ,overweight and undertrained.
Johnson was still out of it when Sam McVey helped him onto his stool.The day after the fight Johnson stated ,"Willard beat me fair and square I never dreamed a man could survive against me if I really went after him,the better man won" Willard knocked out 2 of Johnson's gold teeth which he swallowed not wanting the crowd to see,He showed Barney Curley the promoter the gaps in his teeth the next morning.Johnson was at the quayside to see Willard off and they parted on good terms. Johnson didn't write that book which was originally called Mes Combats,it was a ghosted hack job done by a third rate scribe.Johnson was genuinely ko'd after doing his best to get the Cowboy out of there and running out of steam and stamina it was a terrific right hand that did the job.Personally I think the fight reflects great credit on Johnson for the fight he put up,everything was stacked against him the distance of 45rds was a joke. Once Johnson realised he couldnt get Jess out of there he knew he was going to lose but he didn't quit.Jack Welch the referee said if the fight had been scored over the first 20 rds he would have given the decision to Johnson.Johnson peddled a story to Fleischer that he took a dive and Fleischer paid him a few bucks but never published the "confession". Is it actually possible for you to make a post with personnaly insulting the recipient of it? I can see its pretty much the norm on here, but its all so childish and I get the impression you're a bit better than that.

[travestyny]

You're still stalking me about this. You insist that I'm lying, Jeannette, McVey and Langford were lying. You call anyone who disagrees with you a liar, you have a problem. Your proof is in the form of 100 year old anonymous articles and heresy. The truth is, Johnson never wanted to fight them as champion. The proof is documented throughout history books and articles from people much more unbiased and certainly smarter than you. Keep your references and your accusations.

Stalking you? You are posting on a public forum. Stop with the sensationalism.

You are basing your position on nothing but emotion. Did the New York Commission call off the fight with Jeannette or not? It's very simple.

[Ivich]

I own and have read several of the books on the topic. Thoroughly researched books that outline Johnson's shenanigans when it came to agreeing to fights and then moving the goal posts, as he did with the proposed fights in Australia. He agreed to $50K to fight Langford and McVey, and then moved the goal post by insisting on $15K forfeit to be posted in a U.S. bank versus an Australian bank. Johnson has a long history of agreeing to fight someone from one side of his mouth while simultaneously finding a back door to get out of it. He not only ducked Langford, McVey and Jeannette while champion, he ducked other black contenders as well, always having an excuse at the ready. Kid Cotton was a former sparring partner of Johnson, and equal in terms of size and strength. Defeated some of the same opponents Jack faced. Johnson would have nothing to do with him, as well as several other black contenders.

Look at the list of no-hopers Jim Johnson beat before getting his shot at Johnson...Jim Esson, Kid Jackson 2x, Bob Scanlon, Gustave Marthuin. No reason why Johnson would take that fight in favor of McVey, Langford or Jeannette who were clearly better fighters.

Nope Johnson agreed to defend against both Langford and McVey for $45 ,000 plus round trip tickets.You think it unreasonable that Johnson should want to see a cash bond deposited in a US bank before undertaking the sea voyage to Australia?Cash forfeits were commonplace in boxing going back to Sullivan's time/Which books do you own that you think I havent got? Papa Jack? Unforgiveable Blackness?Jack Johnson The Rise? Jack Johnson The Reign?Jack Johnson My Life? Jack Johnson Black Champion?
Kid Cotton?LOLHe was Johnson's protege Jack spent quite a bit of time trying to promote and publicize him. Johnson met every single black fighter of any note Childs, Martin McVey,Langford,Jeannette,Griffin,Black Bill.

[GhostofDempsey]

Stalking you? You are posting on a public forum. Stop with the sensationalism.

You are basing your position on nothing but emotion. Did the New York Commission call off the fight with Jeannette or not? It's very simple.

Johnson already knew they wouldn't sanction the fight in NY, it was a great way to save face by agreeing to a fight he knew could not be made.

[travestyny]

Johnson already knew they wouldn't sanction the fight in NY, it was a great way to save face by agreeing to a fight he knew could not be made.

He knew that based on what? That's not true at all, as NY seemed that they were all for it when Madison Square Garden was set to get the fight, as far as I remember. He was lead to believe it would happen and so was Jeannette and his camp or they wouldn't have signed up for it.

[GhostofDempsey]

Nope Johnson agreed to defend against both Langford and McVey for $45 ,000 plus round trip tickets.You think it unreasonable that Johnson should want to see a cash bond deposited in a US bank before undertaking the sea voyage to Australia?Cash forfeits were commonplace in boxing going back to Sullivan's time/Which books do you own that you think I havent got? Papa Jack? Unforgiveable Blackness?Jack Johnson The Rise? Jack Johnson The Reign?Jack Johnson My Life? Jack Johnson Black Champion?
Kid Cotton?LOLHe was Johnson's protege Jack spent quite a bit of time trying to promote and publicize him. Johnson met every single black fighter of any note Childs, Martin McVey,Langford,Jeannette,Griffin,Black Bill.

You're quoting all of the books written in praise of Johnson. You can try The Sundowners, Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion, The First Black Boxing Champions: Essays on Fighters of the 1800s to the 1920s, just to name a few. Johnson fought black fighters prior to being champion, and he fought both Jeannette and McVey while they were still novices. They had less than 20 and 10 fights respectively. Langford was a middle weight when he fought HW Johnson. Imagine Hagler challenging Holmes or Tyson for the HW title? Johnson avoided him once Langford came up in weight and gained more experience. Yes, Kid Cotton, the guy who Johnson avoided, and dismissed as inferior even though Cotton defeated several of the same opponents Jack thought were credible for him.

[Ivich]

He knew that based on what? That's not true at all, as NY seemed that they were all for it when Madison Square Garden was set to get the fight, as far as I remember. He was lead to believe it would happen and so was Jeannette and his camp or they wouldn't have signed up for it.

Jeannette released a statement saying I don;t blame Jack for this.

[travestyny]

Jeannette released a statement saying I don;t blame Jack for this.

It's always been like this here. I don't mind someone like Jab who is simply giving his opinion, even though I disagree. But when posters tell flat out lies, like claiming Johnson never agreed to give these guys fights, it's completely uncalled for. Especially with the mounds of evidence that has already been revealed about all of it.

[Ivich]

You're quoting all of the books written in praise of Johnson. You can try The Sundowners, Sam Langford: Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion, The First Black Boxing Champions: Essays on Fighters of the 1800s to the 1920s, just to name a few. Johnson fought black fighters prior to being champion, and he fought both Jeannette and McVey while they were still novices. They had less than 20 and 10 fights respectively. Langford was a middle weight when he fought HW Johnson. Imagine Hagler challenging Holmes or Tyson for the HW title? Johnson avoided him once Langford came up in weight and gained more experience. Yes, Kid Cotton, the guy who Johnson avoided, and dismissed as inferior even though Cotton defeated several of the same opponents Jack thought were credible for him.

Have you read the books I named? Because if you haven't, how do you know whether their content was favourable towards Johnson or negative? You don't know what either Johnson or Langford weighed for their fight so please stop making silly statements
.Kid Cottons record is 28 fights won 8 ,lost 13 with 1 draw.Please give a date when a fight between Cotton and Johnson would have been a credible sell to the public? If Johnson had fought him and beaten him up ,as he surely would have done,you would now be condemning him for fighting him!. Let's face it mate you're just a hater who would not recognize objectivity is it jumped up and hit him in the face! Nobody is going to convince you that Johnson signed contracts to fight all 3 of his foremost black challengers and that the fights did not happen was no fault of his own. Your blatant bias and hatred is oozing out of every post you make. I'm still laughing about the possibility of Johnson avoiding Cotton! You're unhinged on this subject! I have The Clay Moyle book and have corresponded with Clay.
FYI, he believes that prime for prime Johnson beats Langford