Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[travestyny]

Nope, it was a publicity stunt and a classless and tasteless act that overshadowed a charity event. Dempsey went to NY of his own goodwill, even donated his own money to the cause. He was billed to fight Bond, not Jeannette. Name one other fighter who would takes on another opponent in the ring this way?

I thought I just mentioned one. Jack Demspey, when he said he would fight any TWO White men present.

I can name a few more. The two White guys who said they would step up and challenge Dempsey since he said he would fight any two of them.

You're again holding Dempsey to a different standard. Your sources are anonymous articles from 100 years ago, or sports writers who weren't dedicated boxing writers, in some cases in the pocket of McKetrick. Often times looking for sensational headlines to sell newspapers. The color line was drawn by states, promoters and managers, Dempsey was in no position to cross those lines. Same way you insist Johnson was in no position to negotiate a fight with Jeannette outside of NY where he knew the fight could not be made.

No, I'm not holding him to a different standard. You completely avoided my question to you.

HE said he would fight ANY TWO White boxers. Apparently he simply didn't want to fight a Black boxer.

Not sure what article you are talking about that is anonymous. I only shared one article on this matter, and it had Dempsey's name attached to it.

There was no color-line there. Dempsey was free to fight Jeannette if he wanted. The crowd booed because he refused.

Never insisted that Johnson was in no position to negotiate with Jeannette outside of NY. Don't know where you got that from.

[GhostofDempsey]

Why didn't French promoter agree to pay Johnson his $,30,000 and put those fight son if they would have been profitable fights then? Do you always respond to questions by ignoring them and replying with a question of your own? Or is it only when you dont have a logical answer to give? I'll look for Johnson's purse against BJJ meantime Id like answers to the earlier questions that I posed you.
Q. Which victory of George Kid Cotton's entitled him to a title shot with Johnson?
Q.Kid Cotton has record of 26 fights won 6 lost15 having been ko'd 10 times given those figures why would Johnson avoid him?
Q. Name a promoter that offered Johnson his asking price to fight the black trio that he refused to defend his title for?
Q. Why would a promoter, knowing beforehand , that the fight would not be allowed go to the trouble of hiring a venue,hiring officials,labour to erect the ring etc go to that expense knowing he would not be compensated for it?
Meanwhile chew on this.
" On July 19th 1912 in Philadelphia black boxer,Battling Jim Johnson defeated Joe Jeannette in a six round No Decision bout.
In the 3rd rd Jeannette tried some wrestling,and Johnson showed he was a good wrestler too,tossing Joe to the floor. In the 5th rd Johnson dropped Jeannette with a hard punch to the jaw.Joe was shaken but fought back hard.Both were tired in the 6th round.
Joe used stomach blows,but Johnson was as hard as nails and Joe was forced to hold to avoid punishment.
The Freeman July 20th 1912.
November 17th in Boston Gunboat Smith won a12 rd decision over Sam Langford.
On Jan1st 1914 the London Olympic SC offered Johnson a purse of $30,00 to defend against Langford the purse to be split 3/4 the winner, 1/4 the loser.The NSC offered Johnson 15,000 purse to defend against Langford. At this time Johnson was matched to defend against Moran for a $35,000 WIN OR LOSE guarantee in Paris in June.
WHICH FIGHT WOULD YOU HAVE TAKEN?

You've been doing the same thing, ignoring my posts and sources while repeatedly asked for sources, then not posting any of your own. I know how this game is played, you're not going to pull that one on me.

Again, you're reaching back to 1912, when Jeannette already defeated Jim Johnson twice 1913, the year Jack Johnson fought Jim Johnson.

I asked you how much Jack Johnson was paid for the Jim Johnson fight and show a source. You responded with totally unrelated sources. Fail.

[Ivich]

You've been doing the same thing, ignoring my posts and sources while repeatedly asked for sources, then not posting any of your own. I know how this game is played, you're not going to pull that one on me.

Again, you're reaching back to 1912, when Jeannette already defeated Jim Johnson twice 1913, the year Jack Johnson fought Jim Johnson.

I asked you how much Jack Johnson was paid for the Jim Johnson fight and show a source. You responded with totally unrelated sources. Fail.

No I repeated questions to you which you haven't answered and won't do so now.

You wanted to know.
Q .Whom Jim Johnson had beaten to warrant
a title shot ?
A. Joe Jeannette.
He had also drawn with McVey,Ross and Kubiak.
Nine months after fighting Johnson he drew with Langford and then Jeannette.
You're the guy who thinks Jack Johnson should have defended against Kid Cotton whom Jim Johnson had beaten ,he had also beaten Morris Harris who beat Cotton where is the logic in your argument there? I've provided you with a primary source that states Jim Johnson beat Jeannette, you have provided NOTHING.

[travestyny]

Don't try to play the victim here. You have been personally attacking me since day one. Don't try to act like the good guy here, you're a disrespectful clown.

And you're still going. You do this every time. You attack the poster because you know your arguments are shlt.

That's why I don't even feel a need to attack you back. You can call me all of the names in the book if you want, but it's not going to change that your arguments fall flat and you're left trying to assassinate those who oppose your viewpoint's character instead of being able to form a compelling argument.

You have no sources of any validity aside from some 100 year old articles that either have no writer credit, or fail to include full context. What may be true today isn't true tomorrow, and posting one article doesn't tell the whole story. In the early 1900s, newspapers were accused by critics of sensationalizing the news in order to drive up circulation, this was especially true of political and sports related stories. How many articles do you think were written about Johnson and other black fighters that may have been embellished or untrue? How many quotes did you state were taken out of context when Johnson himself said he refused to fight Langford and would draw the color line like them other actors? You get hung up on alleged quotes from Dempsey, yet make excuses for Johnson, claiming he is taken out of context, as if you have insight into what was going on in his head.

First of all, didn't you just share anonymous newspaper articles? Hypocritical much?

You are failing miserably. Even the reporters admit that Johnson's statements about drawing the color-line was an obvious joke.

No one expects you to admit that because you have shown you will try to leech onto anything, including flat out lies, to fit your agenda.

Just about every source and quote I've provided, you have either dismissed, ignored, insisted it was a fabrication, a typo, or a lie. What is the point in going on?

That's a lie. I've told you when it was flat out wrong and you duck.

For example, you're still claiming Johnson never agreed to give Jeannette a shot at the title. Provably false. Is it not? You won't even answer.

You've accused me, Jeannette, Langford, McVea, Wills, Johnson himself, and various historians of being liars. You've drawn your own conclusions, so there is no room for presenting facts, logic, or evidence to a thread where it has already been dismissed or ignored. We're running in circles.

No, we're not running in circles as I have definitive proof of what I say. You just ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda. Sounds like you are projecting again, as usual.


Does the information show that Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette for the title? Yes or no? Simple question.

The Young Chronicle 30 Aug 1913

Jack Johnson arrived in London from Paris on Saturday, determined to carry out his suburban music-hall engagements, against which the variety artists have protested. He has been booked to appear in London for a month, and will then go to the provinces and to Ireland. When interviewed Johnson said his salary while in the metropolis would be 1,000 pounds a week, which is the highest amount ever paid to him. Johnson was asked whether he intended to fight "Sam" Langford. He replied, "No! I intend to draw the color-line like some other actors."

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...&searchLimits=

So Johnson himself insisted he would draw the color line. I guess since he fought Battling Jim Johnson (the weakest link to the black fighters of that era) it makes ole' Jack a liar too. Or at the very least, a ducker. But go ahead and dismiss that source while posting your same old tired sources. Round and round we go, where this ends nobody knows.

LMAO. You are really failing here. I don't have to dismiss it. It was a joke. And here is your proof.


I believe this is from Unforgivable Blackness.
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Why do you think they laughed?

Here is more to show you are wrong.
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Johnson said laughingly today that his threat to 'draw the color line' was simply a joke.

But I guess you're going to claim your sources are somehow good and mine are not, right? Stop it. I hadn't even read any of these at the time that I first ran into that quotation, which was obviously a joke. This just backs it up that I was right that it was a joke. Don't you agree?

[GhostofDempsey]

I thought I just mentioned one. Jack Demspey, when he said he would fight any TWO White men present.

I can name a few more. The two White guys who said they would step up and challenge Dempsey since he said he would fight any two of them.



No, I'm not holding him to a different standard. You completely avoided my question to you.

HE said he would fight ANY TWO White boxers. Apparently he simply didn't want to fight a Black boxer.

Not sure what article you are talking about that is anonymous. I only shared one article on this matter, and it had Dempsey's name attached to it.

There was no color-line there. Dempsey was free to fight Jeannette if he wanted. The crowd booed because he refused.

Never insisted that Johnson was in no position to negotiate with Jeannette outside of NY. Don't know where you got that from.

Where is your original source for Dempsey's quote? I don't recall where it was first posted.

Again, Dempsey wasn't in a position to make those choices when it came to crossing the color line. His manager made that call as you well know.

In the grand scheme of things, who was Joe Jeannette? Dempsey was pulling in million dollar gates, he didn't need to fight Jeannette or any other fighter who couldn't earn $10K. Especially when he hadn't trained for an actual fight, it was an exhibition for charity. No one in their right mind thinks Dempsey was afraid of Jeannette. The stunt Jeannette pulled was all publicity and he was desperate for one last payday.

[travestyny]

I asked you how much Jack Johnson was paid for the Jim Johnson fight and show a source. You responded with totally unrelated sources. Fail.

Not sure how much he got paid. It certainly wasn't much.

The fight pulled in $5,179.

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[travestyny]

Where is your original source for Dempsey's quote? I don't recall where it was first posted.

Again, Dempsey wasn't in a position to make those choices when it came to crossing the color line. His manager made that call as you well know.

In the grand scheme of things, who was Joe Jeannette? Dempsey was pulling in million dollar gates, he didn't need to fight Jeannette or any other fighter who couldn't earn $10K. Especially when he hadn't trained for an actual fight, it was an exhibition for charity. No one in their right mind thinks Dempsey was afraid of Jeannette. The stunt Jeannette pulled was all publicity and he was desperate for one last payday.

I already posted it.

The New York Times article on it as well as Jack Dempsey's article on it. "They called me a Bum." -- September 1925



This was before he was champion, so I don't think he was pulling in big gates just yet. And no one said he was afraid of Jeannette. But he damn sure wanted to fight 2 men instead of Jeannette. So you can draw your own conclusions from that.

[Ivich]

Not sure how much he got paid. It certainly wasn't much.

The fight pulled in $5,179.

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Just looked in a few books Geoffrey C Ward says he ended up with just over a $1000. So much for two blacks having lucrative matches! He hadn't fought for a year and a half.

[travestyny]

Just looked in a few books Geoffrey C Ward says he ended up with just over a $1000. So much for two blacks having lucrative matches! He hadn't fought for a year and a half.

Exactly. I know it's kinda small (I hate when posting a clipping here either takes up nearly the whole page or is too small, but I prefer to go smaller rather than big), but the clipping I gave even shows Langford Jeannette only pulled in 11,370.

I didn't think we would be able to find out how much Johnson got. Good looking out for the info!!!

[GhostofDempsey]

Not sure how much he got paid. It certainly wasn't much.

The fight pulled in $5,179.

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So Johnson demanded $30K for Langford, Jeannette or McVey, but was willing to fight for less than $5K for Jim Johnson. That's less than he would have gotten if he had honored his original contract with Langford which Johnson reneged on. That's really all we need to know about who was ducking who and his double standards. Hell, he demanded a $5K side bet from Kid Cotton who wasn't even as good as Battling Jim.