Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

This has been my contention all along. For all of the praise he gets, we can't ignore the fact that his best wins were against middleweights and his wins over McVey, Jeannette were while they were still novices. McVey was only 19 years old when they fought. They had less than 10 and 20 fights respectively. Once they got bigger and improved (Jeannette fought Johnson to a draw in their last contest), Johnson avoided them. Johnson's win over Langford would have been like LaMotta fighting Marciano. Once Sam got bigger and better, Johnson steered clear of him. When lightweight Jack Blackburn bloodied Johnson's nose in sparring, it fueled a life long grudge between them. Harry Wills roughed up Johnson in sparring and was told never to come back. He certainly wouldn't see a title shot.

McVey had 18 fights before facing Johnson you are going by Box rec
Johnson sacked Wills because he couldn't give him a decent work out. The biased vitriol coming of your key board borders on farcical! Its official You're a TROLL!

[GhostofDempsey]

Jim Johnson had beaten;
Jeannette
Cowler
Harris
And drawn with Ross,Kubiak and McVey.
He had also beaten a fella named Kid Cotton.
Kaufman had beaten;
Barry
Schreck
Gardner
Sullivan
Ross
Flynn
In his next 2 fights after losing to Johnson,he beat Jack O Brien.And he weighed 191lbs for the Johnson fight, pretty big middleweight!
Ross had beaten;
Gardner by ko
Drawn with:Harris and Barry and he weighed 214lbs for the Johnson fight,pretty big middleweight!

So you're going to run down his entire career? That's not how title shots work. Try his fights for just that year of 1913...Esson, Jackson 2x, Scanlon, Marthuin, O'Kelly, Overby, and two losses to Jeannette. Why would he get a shot ahead of Jeannette who he lost to twice that year? Seven years had passed since Jeannette fought Johnson to a draw. Johnson cherry-picked Jim Johnson who lost twice to Jeanette that year, and the cherry-pick backfired.

Jim Esson	KO	1 (?)	Jun 22, 1913	Américan-Park, Bordeaux, Gironde, France
42	NC	26–10–5 (1)	Kid Jackson	NC	?	May 29, 1913	Apollo Saint-Michel, Avignon, Vaucluse, France
41	Win	26–10–5	Bob Scanlon	TKO	6 (20)	May 26, 1913	The Ring, Blackfriars Road, Southwark, London, England, U.K.
40	Win	25–10–5	Kid Jackson	TKO	10 (?)	May 3, 1913	Eldorado-Casino, Marseille, Bouches-du-Rhône, France
39	Win	24–10–5	Gustave Marthuin	TKO	8 (20)	Apr 28, 1913	The Ring, Blackfriars Road, Southwark, London, England, U.K.
38	Win	23–10–5	Con O'Kelly	KO	11 (15)	Apr 3, 1913	Liverpool Stadium, Pudsey Street, Liverpool, Merseyside, England, U.K.
37	Loss	22–10–5	Joe Jeanette	DQ	15 (?)	Jan 21, 1913	Providence, Rhode Island, U.S.
36	Win	22–9–5	Tom Overby	KO	6 (10)	Jan 16, 1913	Keystone A.C., Allentown, Pennsylvania, U.S.
35	Loss	21–9–5	Joe Jeanette	NWS

[Ivich]

Frank Moran...remember him?

Yes I remember him Moran beat him on a foul.


1910 Frank Moran 3 Nov 21 George "Kid" Cotton Pittsburgh, Pa WF 1

[GhostofDempsey]

Yes I remember him Moran beat him on a foul.


1910 Frank Moran 3 Nov 21 George "Kid" Cotton Pittsburgh, Pa WF 1

Moran was already out on his feet before the foul was called against Cotton.

[Ivich]

Moran was already out on his feet before the foul was called against Cotton.

Out on his feet because of the foul .I give you full credit you had me going I thought you were serious with your posts.No doubt about it Mate you're a top class TROLL My respects!

[GhostofDempsey]

Out on his feet because of the foul .I give you full credit you had me going I thought you were serious with your posts.No doubt about it Mate you're top class TROLL My respects!

Nope, it was a legit body punch that led to the knockout blow to the chin. Ref called it a low blow but wasn't. The fact that Jack Johnson placed a $5K forfeit demand for the fight tells us he really didn't want it. What a surprise.

Still haven't addressed my Jim Johnson post above.

[Ivich]

So you're going to run down his entire career? That's not how title shots work. Try his fights for just that year of 1913...Esson, Jackson 2x, Scanlon, Marthuin, O'Kelly, Overby, and two losses to Jeannette. Why would he get a shot ahead of Jeannette who he lost to twice that year? Seven years had passed since Jeannette fought Johnson to a draw. Johnson cherry-picked Jim Johnson who lost twice to Jeanette that year, and the cherry-pick backfired.

Jim Esson	KO	1 (?)	Jun 22, 1913	Américan-Park, Bordeaux, Gironde, France
42	NC	26–10–5 (1)	Kid Jackson	NC	?	May 29, 1913	Apollo Saint-Michel, Avignon, Vaucluse, France
41	Win	26–10–5	Bob Scanlon	TKO	6 (20)	May 26, 1913	The Ring, Blackfriars Road, Southwark, London, England, U.K.
40	Win	25–10–5	Kid Jackson	TKO	10 (?)	May 3, 1913	Eldorado-Casino, Marseille, Bouches-du-Rhône, France
39	Win	24–10–5	Gustave Marthuin	TKO	8 (20)	Apr 28, 1913	The Ring, Blackfriars Road, Southwark, London, England, U.K.
38	Win	23–10–5	Con O'Kelly	KO	11 (15)	Apr 3, 1913	Liverpool Stadium, Pudsey Street, Liverpool, Merseyside, England, U.K.
37	Loss	22–10–5	Joe Jeanette	DQ	15 (?)	Jan 21, 1913	Providence, Rhode Island, U.S.
36	Win	22–9–5	Tom Overby	KO	6 (10)	Jan 16, 1913	Keystone A.C., Allentown, Pennsylvania, U.S.
35	Loss	21–9–5	Joe Jeanette	NWS

Your stipulated time date Jan 1911 onwards ,Johnson lost his title in April 1915 I asked you which of his wins should have earned him a title shot ,you didnt reply to my question From YOUR time date till Johnsons defeat Cotton had26 fights winning only 6 of them and losing15, 10 of them by KO.
I've asked you to explain to me how Cotton warranted a title shot during the time scale YOU stipulated?
Putting it simply which win of his merited a title chance? Cotton was a crude journeyman sparring partner level all his career and Johnson coached him.
How did Johnsons choice of Jim Johnson back fire Johnson, fighting with a broken bone in his arm earned a draw.
You think that reflects discredit on Johnson? You're deluded Pal!

[Ivich]

Which of Battling Jim Johnson's wins secured him a title shot with Jack Johnson? Or 5'9" Tony Ross? Al Kaufman?

Tony Ross is Cotton's best win! LOL He also lost to him by the way. Cotton beat Wills when Harry was a 6 fight novice Wills fought him twice more and kod him both times!

[GhostofDempsey]

Your stipulated time date Jan 1911 onwards ,Johnson lost his title in April 1915 I asked you which of his wins should have earned him a title shot ,you didnt reply to my question From YOUR time date till Johnsons defeat Cotton had26 fights winning only 6 of them and losing15, 10 of them by KO.
I've asked you to explain to me how Cotton warranted a title shot during the time scale YOU stipulated?
Putting it simply which win of his merited a title chance? Cotton was a crude journeyman sparring partner level all his career and Johnson coached him.
How did Johnsons choice of Jim Johnson back fire Johnson, fighting with a broken bone in his arm earned a draw.
You think that reflects discredit on Johnson? You're deluded Pal!

1911 was for Cotton, I already addressed that, Moran was hit with a body punch and KO blow to the chin, ref called it a low blow. I'm talking about Battling Jim Johnson here. He lost twice to Jeannette in 1913, yet it was Jim Johnson who gets the title shot, and not Jeannette. Jim Johnson beat a long string of no-hopers, or in some cases it was a NC, and got a shot at Jack's title. This is a duck of Jeannette while cherry-picking Jim Johnson.

[Ivich]

1911 was for Cotton, I already addressed that, Moran was hit with a body punch and KO blow to the chin, ref called it a low blow. I'm talking about Battling Jim Johnson here. He lost twice to Jeannette in 1913, yet it was Jim Johnson who gets the title shot, and not Jeannette. Jim Johnson beat a long string of no-hopers, or in some cases it was a NC, and got a shot at Jack's title. This is a duck of Jeannette while cherry-picking Jim Johnson.

It cant be a duck when Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette twice,it's that obvious and that simple. NB Jeannette lost to Langford the day before Johnson beat Jim Johnson. Now that I've blown your Cotton argument out of the water you want to drop it? Okay. Just keep in mind Jim Johnson's resume ****s all over Cotton's!
In1913 Jeannette lost to debutee Jack Thompson and Langford,he beat Jim Johnson on a foul the other bout between them was a No Dec.