Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[GhostofDempsey]

I believe Jeannette said this. However, I also believe that no one is finding a primary source for this. I'm guessing you don't have one because you said something about not being willing to provide sources.

Contrast this statement with Johnson and Jeanette both agreeing to a fight in New York that was left to the sole mercy of the NY Commission. Again, Jeannette's side also worked on this deal and it was accepted. Signed by both guys. Forfeitures posted. So did Jack Johnson offer him a championship fight? The answer has to be yes. I don't know how you can argue no.


The McMahon brothers would even know more than Johnson whether the fight had a chance to come off, and obviously they did believe so. They obviously didn't see the commission pulling the fight.

I didn’t say anything about not providing sources, I did in fact provide them to the other idiot, he has yet to provide any himself. Jeannette’s quote can be found all over the internet from various sources. If we have to scramble for each original source for every quote from every fighter you’re in for a very time consuming endeavor. Good luck to you if you have that sort of time on your hands and access to every old newspaper and magazine article and interview ever conducted.

A fight isn’t a legitimate offer if Johnson knows it can’t possibly be sanctioned. Not once, but twice he played this game. They could have easily fought in Paris and several other locations. Instead, Johnson cherry picked the black fighter Jeannette has already beaten twice in the year Jack fought Jim.

[travestyny]

I didn’t say anything about not providing sources, I did in fact provide them to the other idiot, he has yet to provide any himself. Jeannette’s quote can be found all over the internet from various sources. If we have to scramble for each original source for every quote from every fighter you’re in for a very time consuming endeavor. Good luck to you if you have that sort of time on your hands and access to every old newspaper and magazine article and interview ever conducted.

A fight isn’t a legitimate offer if Johnson knows it can’t possibly be sanctioned. Not once, but twice he played this game. They could have easily fought in Paris and several other locations. Instead, Johnson cherry picked the black fighter Jeannette has already beaten twice in the year Jack fought Jim.

What proof do you have that he knew the fight couldn't be sanctioned.

And if there was proof of that, why didn't the McMahons know about it?



Dude, you don't even accept newspaper clippings...but now for your Jeannette quote just "online" is enough for you? Really?

[GhostofDempsey]

You can get over yourself anytime now. I didn't come here because of you. I think it was just the other day I had a short convo with Billeau here. You need to stop with trying to make me your SunSpace. I'm here to talk boxing. All you and Pep do is attack people instead of working on defending your positions.




Ilvan (was that his name) had a good question. What are the sources for the quotations that they each gave regarding Johnson? McVey was close to him throughout and they sparred together before the Willard match. I've seen Jeannette's statement about Johnson drawing the color line but never from a primary source, but from 2006 or something like that with nothing linking to the original source. If you have all of this information, why don't you post it like Ilvan asked you to do.

I don't have any bias here. I'm already on record saying that Johnson ducked Langford when that was the information I had. When I did my own research, I found that it wasn't true. This is documented here, so that shows I'm completely willing to change my mind when I get all of the facts.

I call a liar a liar. Jack Johnson saying he took a dive. Liar. Jeannette claiming Johnson drew the color line. Liar. It's about PROOF. First, it's factually false since he fought Jim Johnson. Second, Jeannette is well aware that it was signed and sealed for them to have their fight in New York. This can be proven as FACT.


I don't know how this got turned into Mayweather, but YES! If Mayweather said that he would fight ANY fighter that the promoter chooses, then Thurman jumps out, and he says nah. Floyd deserves criticism. Espeically if he then says he'll fight any two men in the place, but not Thurman. How does that sound to you? Wouldn't YOU blame Floyd if he said he would fight ANY TWO men, but not Thurman? What do you think?


And let me remind you that it's not only me that feels this way. He was booed by the entire Madison Square Garden. For what it's worth, I think it was a dirty trick and I think he should have declined. BUT, he apparently was the one who made it about race and claimed he would fight ANY man just days out, if memory serves me correctly, and then ANY TWO WHITE men during the dust up, and once he goes there, for me, that says he could have taken that fight and he just declined for no good reason other than the reason he gave. He didn't want to fight a Black guy. Also keeping in mind Jeannette was 120 years old at this time.


Edit: Ivich, not Ilvan.

You didn’t prove anything that Jeannette said or didn’t say, you also don’t have proof that Johnson intended to fight any of the top three black fighters. Jim Johnson earns a shot after losing twice in the same year to Jeannette…Johnson’s actions spoke louder than his words or his pen.

Mayweather is an example of a modern day fighter with the status Dempsey had in boxing back in his day, that’s why I chose him. Floyd called himself he best ever, which means he should be able to beat any fighter and all comers. Make bold claims, be prepared to back them up right? You set a double standard and fail to see how an exhibition scheduled between two fighters does not entitle another fighter to walk into the ring like some WWE goon and demand a real fight. That was all theater and another underhanded publicity stunt by McKetrick.

Dempsey was told by his manager he couldn’t fight him. Dempsey didn’t fear Jeannette. IIvan claims Johnson has no control or negotiating power over who he fought, it was all in the hands of promoters…why the double standard for Dempsey?

[ShoulderRoll]

Jeannette and Langford were back numbers when Dempsey won the title in1919. Jeannette was nearly 40 years old and Langford had been blind in one eye since the Fulton fight in1917.If Dempsey had defended his title against them ,all the knockers would be out in force on here, condemning him for taking on old, past their sell by dates relics.

In Dempsey's first foray into NYC he ducked Jeannette. As he been mentioned previously in this thread.

- - Dempsey tried multiple x to get in the ring with Wills.

But he never actually got in the ring with him. So this will always be a big "what if."

On the other hand we know for a fact how Jack Johnson stacked up against the best black fighters of his era.

[Willie Pep 229]

You talk about irrelevant facts, and then you try to blame everything on Fritz? You have blamed everyone and their mother for this fight not happening except Dempsey. You must realize that you are far too biased to have this conversation.

Not everything just the Chicago contract - that was Fitz.

No you are too bias, oops that's should read . . . far too bias.

See now we're even.

You're a Dempsey hater. You're going to believe what you want to believe.

[travestyny]

Not everything just the Chicago contract - that was Fitz.

No you are too bias, oops that's should read . . . far too bias.

See now we're even.

You're a Dempsey hater. You're going to believe what you want to believe.

You can say whatever you like, but you need PROOF.

You're another one that's all emotions.

So did Friz control Dempsey with a remote control, or did Dempsey have a mind of his own? He told you straight from his mouth that any promoter that can get all the signatures would get the fight. And here you are still making excuses for him and blaming others. Sure...Fritz made him break the contract. lol.

The contract was transferred to the Chicago Coliseum Club. Fritz was out at that point. So saying that Fritz left sometime later is irrelevant because his role int the matter was over and Dempsey had agreed to it being that way already, obviously, because he signed the contract with the Chicago Coliseum Club. So your new excuse, just like your other excuses, makes no sense.

And who made him say he didn't want Wills in Canada? Ohhhhh, that's right. That's when you tried to blame Wills......and I still have seen no proof of that. Dempsey was the one who refused the fight and had Rickard's people mad at him, right?

I'll await your answer. It should be as fantastical as your other excuses.

[travestyny]

You didn’t prove anything that Jeannette said or didn’t say, you also don’t have proof that Johnson intended to fight any of the top three black fighters. Jim Johnson earns a shot after losing twice in the same year to Jeannette…Johnson’s actions spoke louder than his words or his pen.

Mayweather is an example of a modern day fighter with the status Dempsey had in boxing back in his day, that’s why I chose him. Floyd called himself he best ever, which means he should be able to beat any fighter and all comers. Make bold claims, be prepared to back them up right? You set a double standard and fail to see how an exhibition scheduled between two fighters does not entitle another fighter to walk into the ring like some WWE goon and demand a real fight. That was all theater and another underhanded publicity stunt by McKetrick.

Dempsey was told by his manager he couldn’t fight him. Dempsey didn’t fear Jeannette. IIvan claims Johnson has no control or negotiating power over who he fought, it was all in the hands of promoters…why the double standard for Dempsey?

It wasn't for me to prove what he said or didn't say. It was you who kept claiming what he said, and now it turns out that you have no source for it except "the internet." Which you happily accept now, but newspaper sources are off limits....unless they come from you, that is. I see how it works.

Now I have to go in Johnson's brain and decide for him if he intended to fight any of them or not? It's a good thing that we know of his signature on contracts and in one instance a fight that was made and was out of his hands when it was pulled. That should clearly be good enough to know he intended to fight. Just because you hate him doesn't mean you get to change the narrative to, "Yea, the fight was all set, but I can jump into Johnson's head and know he wouldn't have fought because I hate him."


I've already stated clearly how I see the Jeannette situation. I've said it was a dirty trick and I've said he should have simply declined if he didn't want to face 60 year old Jeannette for 4 rounds. It was Dempsey who proclaimed he would fight ANY man they choose a few days out of the contest. The night of, he said he would fight ANY white man. In fact, he proclaimed he would fight ANY TWO white men, but not Jeannette. So Zeus, had he been White, could have been there and Dempsey would have fought him, but not Jeannette. Actually Zeus and Hercules, had they been white, could have been there and Dempsey proclaims he would have fought them BOTH over Jeannette.

Is that right or not? I mean according to his own words, that's exactly what it was, no?

Had he simply declined and said he was only there to fight Bonds, there wouldn't be an issue from me.


Why are you trying to hold me to what lvich said. First, I didn't see him say that, at least not in the context that you are trying to put it. And second, I don't believe that is true. His decisions may have been dictated by this or that, but Johnson obviously chose whom he would fight. So there is no double standard.

[QueensburyRules]

It wasn't for me to prove what he said or didn't say. It was you who kept claiming what he said, and now it turns out that you have no source for it except "the internet." Which you happily accept now, but newspaper sources are off limits....unless they come from you, that is. I see how it works.

Now I have to go in Johnson's brain and decide for him if he intended to fight any of them or not? It's a good thing that we know of his signature on contracts and in one instance a fight that was made and was out of his hands when it was pulled. That should clearly be good enough to know he intended to fight. Just because you hate him doesn't mean you get to change the narrative to, "Yea, the fight was all set, but I can jump into Johnson's head and know he wouldn't have fought because I hate him."


I've already stated clearly how I see the Jeannette situation. I've said it was a dirty trick and I've said he should have simply declined if he didn't want to face 60 year old Jeannette for 4 rounds. It was Dempsey who proclaimed he would fight ANY man they choose a few days out of the contest. The night of, he said he would fight ANY white man. In fact, he proclaimed he would fight ANY TWO white men, but not Jeannette. So Zeus, had he been White, could have been there and Dempsey would have fought him, but not Jeannette. Actually Zeus and Hercules, had they been white, could have been there and Dempsey proclaims he would have fought them BOTH over Jeannette.

Is that right or not? I mean according to his own words, that's exactly what it was, no?

Had he simply declined and said he was only there to fight Bonds, there wouldn't be an issue from me.


Why are you trying to hold me to what lvich said. First, I didn't see him say that, at least not in the context that you are trying to put it. And second, I don't believe that is true. His decisions may have been dictated by this or that, but Johnson obviously chose whom he would fight. So there is no double standard.

- - U ADD savant of 123s and ABCs can't tie U shoelaces or figure out how to build dog house.

Kearns arranges a high publicity WAR milk fund match for Dempsey vs a named opponent and suddenly Jeannette at end of his career shows up.

Kearns who had 100% control over the then impoverished Dempsey nixes and they leave the Ring.

Only the teeensiest, most measly, most vacuous worm in existence would proclaim that a Dempsey duck

[Ivich]

In Dempsey's first foray into NYC he ducked Jeannette. As he been mentioned previously in this thread.



But he never actually got in the ring with him. So this will always be a big "what if."

On the other hand we know for a fact how Jack Johnson stacked up against the best black fighters of his era.

Dempsey had agreed to box an exhibition for free the proceeds to go to the War Fund his opponent was to be Joe Bonds ,at the last moment Bonds was switched and Joe Jeannette substituted.Following the advice of his manager Dempsey refused to spar with Jeannette donated $500 to the fund and left.It was an exhibition not a fight and given the subterfuge surrounding the substituting he had every right to refuse to go on. Jeannette was 39 years old Dempsey surely had no fear of him.

[GhostofDempsey]

It wasn't for me to prove what he said or didn't say. It was you who kept claiming what he said, and now it turns out that you have no source for it except "the internet." Which you happily accept now, but newspaper sources are off limits....unless they come from you, that is. I see how it works.

Now I have to go in Johnson's brain and decide for him if he intended to fight any of them or not? It's a good thing that we know of his signature on contracts and in one instance a fight that was made and was out of his hands when it was pulled. That should clearly be good enough to know he intended to fight. Just because you hate him doesn't mean you get to change the narrative to, "Yea, the fight was all set, but I can jump into Johnson's head and know he wouldn't have fought because I hate him."


I've already stated clearly how I see the Jeannette situation. I've said it was a dirty trick and I've said he should have simply declined if he didn't want to face 60 year old Jeannette for 4 rounds. It was Dempsey who proclaimed he would fight ANY man they choose a few days out of the contest. The night of, he said he would fight ANY white man. In fact, he proclaimed he would fight ANY TWO white men, but not Jeannette. So Zeus, had he been White, could have been there and Dempsey would have fought him, but not Jeannette. Actually Zeus and Hercules, had they been white, could have been there and Dempsey proclaims he would have fought them BOTH over Jeannette.

Is that right or not? I mean according to his own words, that's exactly what it was, no?

Had he simply declined and said he was only there to fight Bonds, there wouldn't be an issue from me.


Why are you trying to hold me to what lvich said. First, I didn't see him say that, at least not in the context that you are trying to put it. And second, I don't believe that is true. His decisions may have been dictated by this or that, but Johnson obviously chose whom he would fight. So there is no double standard.

The source is listed in multiple books that have been researched by historians with greater resources. You can try and spin this any way you want to "win", but it doesn't help you out. You don't get to rewrite history just because one person on the internet (me) isn't willing to spend hours scouring articles and books until I nail down the original source. This is why no one wants to engage with you. You are irrational and unreasonable. Now you're back to running in circles again and repeating yourself. This is where it ends. I'm not going to partake in your mental illness. You've already started multiple threads about this, as well as hijacked multiple threads about this. Dance in front of the mirror, because you've got your mind made up and neither of us is going to agree on anything.