Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[GhostofDempsey]

In Dempsey's first foray into NYC he ducked Jeannette. As he been mentioned previously in this thread.



But he never actually got in the ring with him. So this will always be a big "what if."

On the other hand we know for a fact how Jack Johnson stacked up against the best black fighters of his era.

This is ignorant. He did not duck Jeannette. As I've said before, there is not one fighter then or today who is going to fall for that publicity stunt. Your hero Mayweather certainly wouldn't allow another opponent to enter the ring and fight him. Best ever doe!

[elfag]

Most of the fighters back then had day jobs. These were factory workers and farm boys fighting each other. They may have been "professional prize fighters" but boxing wasnt their career. The skill level was reflective of that.

[Ivich]

Most of the fighters back then had day jobs. These were factory workers and farm boys fighting each other. They may have been "professional prize fighters" but boxing wasnt their career. The skill level was reflective of that.

Back when? In the 20's many fighters were fighting almost every week what time would they have had for ,"day jobs"?
Where have you ever read that once they turned pro.Sullivan Corbett,Fitz,Jeffries,Hart,Burns.Johnson ,had day jobs?
Which day jobs did
Joe Walcott
Gans
Nelson
Wolgast
McGovern
Britton
Lewis
Leonard
Tendler
Wilde
Owen Moran
Driscoll
Welch
Attell
Greb
Hold down? Some of these guys were fighting 35/45 times a year!
Name 5 prominent fighters of those days that were moonlighting in other careers when they were pros?

[travestyny]

The source is listed in multiple books that have been researched by historians with greater resources. You can try and spin this any way you want to "win", but it doesn't help you out.

What are you talking about. It's YOU that is obsessed with "winning," which is obviously why you keep taking about it and why you refuse to admit when you are wrong.

The source is what we are asking you about! If it's listed in multiple books, why don't you just look in one of these multiple books and tell us what the source is. No one is saying he didn't say it. We just want to look at the source!

Trust me, I don't need anything to "help me out." This has been proven here over and over again. you are one of the few who denies what is plain to prove with facts.

You don't get to rewrite history just because one person on the internet (me) isn't willing to spend hours scouring articles and books until I nail down the original source. This is why no one wants to engage with you. You are irrational and unreasonable. Now you're back to running in circles again and repeating yourself. This is where it ends. I'm not going to partake in your mental illness. You've already started multiple threads about this, as well as hijacked multiple threads about this. Dance in front of the mirror, because you've got your mind made up and neither of us is going to agree on anything.

Here you go again with personal attacks instead of proving your point. If you don't have the original source, just say so. There's no reason for you to turn the conversation into one about me just because you can't pull up information to support your point of view.

[travestyny]

This is ignorant. He did not duck Jeannette. As I've said before, there is not one fighter then or today who is going to fall for that publicity stunt. Your hero Mayweather certainly wouldn't allow another opponent to enter the ring and fight him. Best ever doe!

But he did say he would fight ANY two White men instead of Jeannette, right?

Do you respect that?

[GhostofDempsey]

But he did say he would fight ANY two White men instead of Jeannette, right?

Do you respect that?

Nope, it was a publicity stunt and a classless and tasteless act that overshadowed a charity event. Dempsey went to NY of his own goodwill, even donated his own money to the cause. He was billed to fight Bond, not Jeannette. Name one other fighter who would takes on another opponent in the ring this way? You're again holding Dempsey to a different standard. Your sources are anonymous articles from 100 years ago, or sports writers who weren't dedicated boxing writers, in some cases in the pocket of McKetrick. Often times looking for sensational headlines to sell newspapers. The color line was drawn by states, promoters and managers, Dempsey was in no position to cross those lines. Same way you insist Johnson was in no position to negotiate a fight with Jeannette outside of NY where he knew the fight could not be made.

[Ivich]

Nope, it was a publicity stunt and a classless and tasteless act that overshadowed a charity event. Dempsey went to NY of his own goodwill, even donated his own money to the cause. He was billed to fight Bond, not Jeannette. Name one other fighter who would takes on another opponent in the ring this way? You're again holding Dempsey to a different standard. Your sources are anonymous articles from 100 years ago, or sports writers who weren't dedicated boxing writers, in some cases in the pocket of McKetrick. Often times looking for sensational headlines to sell newspapers. The color line was drawn by states, promoters and managers, Dempsey was in no position to cross those lines. Same way you insist Johnson was in no position to negotiate a fight with Jeannette outside of NY where he knew the fight could not be made.

How would Johnson know before- hand that the fight could not be made?The promoters certainly thought it could be and they tried to put it on twice. Why would they do that it if was obvious that it wouldn't/couldn't happen? Name another site and promoter in America who offered Johnson his asking price of $30,000 to fight either,Jeannette,McVey or Langford?
Name one in the UK?

[GhostofDempsey]

What are you talking about. It's YOU that is obsessed with "winning," which is obviously why you keep taking about it and why you refuse to admit when you are wrong.

The source is what we are asking you about! If it's listed in multiple books, why don't you just look in one of these multiple books and tell us what the source is. No one is saying he didn't say it. We just want to look at the source!

Trust me, I don't need anything to "help me out." This has been proven here over and over again. you are one of the few who denies what is plain to prove with facts.




Here you go again with personal attacks instead of proving your point. If you don't have the original source, just say so. There's no reason for you to turn the conversation into one about me just because you can't pull up information to support your point of view.

Don't try to play the victim here. You have been personally attacking me since day one. Don't try to act like the good guy here, you're a disrespectful clown.

You have no sources of any validity aside from some 100 year old articles that either have no writer credit, or fail to include full context. What may be true today isn't true tomorrow, and posting one article doesn't tell the whole story. In the early 1900s, newspapers were accused by critics of sensationalizing the news in order to drive up circulation, this was especially true of political and sports related stories. How many articles do you think were written about Johnson and other black fighters that may have been embellished or untrue? How many quotes did you state were taken out of context when Johnson himself said he refused to fight Langford and would draw the color line like them other actors? You get hung up on alleged quotes from Dempsey, yet make excuses for Johnson, claiming he is taken out of context, as if you have insight into what was going on in his head.

Just about every source and quote I've provided, you have either dismissed, ignored, insisted it was a fabrication, a typo, or a lie. What is the point in going on? You've accused me, Jeannette, Langford, McVea, Wills, Johnson himself, and various historians of being liars. You've drawn your own conclusions, so there is no room for presenting facts, logic, or evidence to a thread where it has already been dismissed or ignored. We're running in circles.

The Young Chronicle 30 Aug 1913

Jack Johnson arrived in London from Paris on Saturday, determined to carry out his suburban music-hall engagements, against which the variety artists have protested. He has been booked to appear in London for a month, and will then go to the provinces and to Ireland. When interviewed Johnson said his salary while in the metropolis would be 1,000 pounds a week, which is the highest amount ever paid to him. Johnson was asked whether he intended to fight "Sam" Langford. He replied, "No! I intend to draw the color-line like some other actors."

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...&searchLimits=

So Johnson himself insisted he would draw the color line. I guess since he fought Battling Jim Johnson (the weakest link to the black fighters of that era) it makes ole' Jack a liar too. Or at the very least, a ducker. But go ahead and dismiss that source while posting your same old tired sources. Round and round we go, where this ends nobody knows.

[GhostofDempsey]

How would Johnson know before- hand that the fight could not be made?The promoters certainly thought it could be and they tried to put it on twice. Why would they do that it if was obvious that it wouldn't/couldn't happen? Name another site and promoter in America who offered Johnson his asking price of $30,000 to fight either,Jeannette,McVey or Langford?
Name one in the UK?

I already posted those offers on another post along with the articles for reference.

How much was Johnson paid to fight Jim Johnson in Paris? Post a source if you know. McVey and Jeannette were known fighters in France. The fight could have very well been made there.

[Ivich]

How much was Johnson paid to fight Jim Johnson in Paris? Post a source if you know. McVey and Jeannette were known fighters in France. The fight could have very well been made there.

Why didn't French promoter agree to pay Johnson his $,30,000 and put those fight son if they would have been profitable fights then? Do you always respond to questions by ignoring them and replying with a question of your own? Or is it only when you dont have a logical answer to give? I'll look for Johnson's purse against BJJ meantime Id like answers to the earlier questions that I posed you.
Q. Which victory of George Kid Cotton's entitled him to a title shot with Johnson?
Q.Kid Cotton has record of 26 fights won 6 lost15 having been ko'd 10 times given those figures why would Johnson avoid him?
Q. Name a promoter that offered Johnson his asking price to fight the black trio that he refused to defend his title for?
Q. Why would a promoter, knowing beforehand , that the fight would not be allowed go to the trouble of hiring a venue,hiring officials,labour to erect the ring etc go to that expense knowing he would not be compensated for it?
Meanwhile chew on this.
" On July 19th 1912 in Philadelphia black boxer,Battling Jim Johnson defeated Joe Jeannette in a six round No Decision bout.
In the 3rd rd Jeannette tried some wrestling,and Johnson showed he was a good wrestler too,tossing Joe to the floor. In the 5th rd Johnson dropped Jeannette with a hard punch to the jaw.Joe was shaken but fought back hard.Both were tired in the 6th round.
Joe used stomach blows,but Johnson was as hard as nails and Joe was forced to hold to avoid punishment.
The Freeman July 20th 1912.
November 17th in Boston Gunboat Smith won a12 rd decision over Sam Langford.
On Jan1st 1914 the London Olympic SC offered Johnson a purse of $30,00 to defend against Langford the purse to be split 3/4 the winner, 1/4 the loser.The NSC offered Johnson 15,000 purse to defend against Langford. At this time Johnson was matched to defend against Moran for a $35,000 WIN OR LOSE guarantee in Paris in June.
WHICH FIGHT WOULD YOU HAVE TAKEN?