Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[HOUDINI563]

However it is a fact he signed to fight Langford numerous times only for these bouts to fall through. Johnson’s only stipulation was that he get paid his going rate of $30,000.

Unfortunately bouts between two black fighters were not highly anticipated events. The public wanted to see a white man beat Johnson. Fights are made to serve the publics demand.

[Ivich]

- - Heh, heh, U haze ain't my haze, and just because boxrec don't record every weight for every fight don't mean fighters weren't weighed.

Going by boxrec weights, Sam 156 and JJ 185 in 1905. In 1904 Sam highest weight had been 141 lbs. Clearly he was a growing boy who would end up weighing over 200lbs by his end, but coloured JJ didn't want to fight grown up Sam. Great defense in dodging that bullet.

Perhaps you missed my praise of JJ cross training conditioning that allowed him to take the fight to Willard for 26 rounds.

That's OK, you're excused.

=

JJ fought Battling J 12/19/1913 and thusly stripped. Sam vs Joe the next day at Luna Park clearly had their fight upgraded to the French recognition of Hvy Champ.
https://boxrec.com/en/event/13054/19147

Élysée Montmartre, Paris
D
PTS 10/10
event

bout

wiki

scores
referee: Emile Maitrot
World Heavyweight Title
One ringside report said that the spectators loudly protested that the men were not fighting and demanded their money back. Jack Johnson said he injured his left arm in the third round and could not use it, but ringsiders said he used his left often and likely fractured it when both fell to the mat in the tenth round. Post-fight examination revealed a slight fracture of the radial in his left arm. In August it had been widely reported by Joe Woodman that Johnson had agreed to terms to fight Sam Langford in Paris. Weights per La Presse Tale of the Tape: 97kg Jack Johnson, 101kg Jim Johnson.

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Sam vs Joe
https://boxrec.com/en/event/57093/92244

Luna Park Arena, Paris
W
PTS 20/20
event

bout

wiki

scores
referee: Franz Reichel
World Heavyweight Title,
as recognized by the French Boxing Federation which had stripped Jack Johnson (and which shortly after stripped Langford)

Box Rec is a useful tool but not infallible.FYI Johnson and Langford did not weigh in, neither did Johnson and O Brien,neither did Johnson andJim Johnson , and I have primary sources to prove it. Your gullible accepting of these "guestimates" just demonstrates what you DON't KNOW, NOT WHAT YOU DO Sorry to be the one to tell you but many old time heavyweight contests featured no weigh ins as there was no official requirement to make weight.The rest of your post I already knew the French federation reversed their earlier decision to strip Johnson of the title on May 6th 1914
.Langford at 200lbs was as fat as a pig Moyle states his best weight was between175/ 180lbs. The complacency in your replies is ill founded my Friend read Pollacks 2 vols on Johnson then you will have a more detailed grasp of these events. You don't really want debate and exchanges of information do you ?You just want to attempt to score points from whomever you are interacting with.Very dissapointing I was hoping for some real interesting responses on this Forum so far all I've got is misinformation confidently proffered as facts.and to top it off there are morons like Steak whose only purpose is to childishly insult others from the safety of his PC.

[travestyny]

Johnson never offered any legit title shots to McVey, Jeannette or Langford. He could have easily fought any one of them in France or elsewhere if he really wanted to, but instead allowed Battling Jim Johnson a shot, a far inferior opponent who likely took short money for the fight. McVey, Jeannette, and Langford went to their graves insisting Johnson would not give them their shot, they were there and would have known the ins and outs of whatever alleged contracts were floated about at that time. Unless you think all three of them were liars.

You're still lying about this. We already have the proof that he signed to fight Jeannette and the NY commission took the fight away. Do you still deny this and if so, what is your proof. Because you know I have proof that says otherwise.


And how many times did he agree to fight Langford? About 3 times? Once with Langford choosing another bout instead and once with Langford not being able to come up with the money that both sides agreed upon. The other time, McIntosh pulling the fight.

[Ivich]

Johnson never offered any legit title shots to McVey, Jeannette or Langford. He could have easily fought any one of them in France or elsewhere if he really wanted to, but instead allowed Battling Jim Johnson a shot, a far inferior opponent who likely took short money for the fight. McVey, Jeannette, and Langford went to their graves insisting Johnson would not give them their shot, they were there and would have known the ins and outs of whatever alleged contracts were floated about at that time. Unless you think all three of them were liars.

It was not for Johnson to offer title shots to anyone ,it was up to promoters to offer to stage those fights,and Hugh McIntosh in Oz and the McMahon Brothers. operating out of NY did just that and Johnson accepted their offers.This is unarguable, well documented fact. I have the dates, purse monies, and the sites of the proposed fights and the reasons they did not take place. Langford stated he knocked Johnson down in their only fight and that he weighed under 150lbs in fact Johnson floored him twice for long 9 counts cut his eye and broke his nose.Jeannette talked a lot of crap about only weighing165lbs for his first fight with Johnson.Show me any verified quote in which McVey stated Johnson refused to give him a title shot?They were close friends McVey seconding Johnson for several fights.Johnson paid for his funeral.Fighters often talk out of the business side of their mouths most boxing people are aware of this. Johnson was 35 years old when he took on JimJohnson who was 26 though Battling Jim was not as good as the other three he was no dub ,he had beatenJeannette, Cowler and drawn with both Jeannette and Langford a year later he would beat Pelkey and Jeannette and he did draw with McVey.Like Houdini I have copies of the statements both The McMahon Bros and the chairman of the NYAC made stating why they would not allow Johnson to defend his title against Jeannette,I also have a copy of McIntosh's statement why he was withdrawing from promoting Johnson in two title defences against Langford and McVey in Australia.You on the other hand have nothing to offer but your dislike of Johnson.sorry but that's not admissable.

[GhostofDempsey]

You're still lying about this. We already have the proof that he signed to fight Jeannette and the NY commission took the fight away. Do you still deny this and if so, what is your proof. Because you know I have proof that says otherwise.


And how many times did he agree to fight Langford? About 3 times? Once with Langford choosing another bout instead and once with Langford not being able to come up with the money that both sides agreed upon. The other time, McIntosh pulling the fight.

You're still stalking me about this. You insist that I'm lying, Jeannette, McVey and Langford were lying. You call anyone who disagrees with you a liar, you have a problem. Your proof is in the form of 100 year old anonymous articles and heresy. The truth is, Johnson never wanted to fight them as champion. The proof is documented throughout history books and articles from people much more unbiased and certainly smarter than you. Keep your references and your accusations.

[Ivich]

You're still stalking me about this. You insist that I'm lying, Jeannette, McVey and Langford were lying. You call anyone who disagrees with you a liar, you have a problem. Your proof is in the form of 100 year old anonymous articles and heresy. The truth is, Johnson never wanted to fight them as champion. The proof is documented throughout history books and articles from people much more unbiased and certainly smarter than you. Keep your references and your accusations.

Inconveniently for your premise Johnson signed to defend against all three and it's a matter of public knowledge the articles are not anonymous they are dated and signed by the promoters and the NYAC 's Chairman, with the sites ,terms, purses, and dates ,so where does that leave your argument? I'm not calling you a liar ,I don't know you,,I'm simply stating categorically that you are wrong and I can prove it! You can ignore primary sourced provenance if you wish, but all that does is reflect on you,not the provider of it.

[GhostofDempsey]

Inconveniently for your premise Johnson signed to defend against all three and it's a matter of public knowledge the articles are not anonymous they are dated and signed by the promoters and the NYAC 's Chairman, with the sites ,terms, purses, and dates ,so where does that leave your argument? I'm not calling you a liar ,I don't know you,,I'm simply stating categorically that you are wrong and I can prove it! You can ignore primary sourced provenance if you wish, but all that does is reflect on you,not the provider of it.

You haven't posted on source or reference since you started posting here. If Johnson really wanted to fight Jeannette, he would not have allegedly signed a contract in a state where he knew the fight could not take place. It's odd that Johnson found excuses not to fight the three top black fighters while champion, but he could give a title shot to Battling Jim Johnson in Paris, a guy who didn't beat anyone to earn that shot.

[QueensburyRules]

Box Rec is a useful tool but not infallible.FYI Johnson and Langford did not weigh in, neither did Johnson and O Brien,neither did Johnson andJim Johnson , and I have primary sources to prove it. Your gullible accepting of these "guestimates" just demonstrates what you DON't KNOW, NOT WHAT YOU DO Sorry to be the one to tell you but many old time heavyweight contests featured no weigh ins as there was no official requirement to make weight.The rest of your post I already knew the French federation reversed their earlier decision to strip Johnson of the title on May 6th 1914
.Langford at 200lbs was as fat as a pig Moyle states his best weight was between175/ 180lbs. The complacency in your replies is ill founded my Friend read Pollacks 2 vols on Johnson then you will have a more detailed grasp of these events. You don't really want debate and exchanges of information do you ?You just want to attempt to score points from whomever you are interacting with.Very dissapointing I was hoping for some real interesting responses on this Forum so far all I've got is misinformation confidently proffered as facts.and to top it off there are morons like Steak whose only purpose is to childishly insult others from the safety of his PC.

- - It can be assumed poor steak was munched up wif a plate of fava beans and French Chardonnay many moons ago.

Primary sources ain't infallible if you understand the Liquored up generation of sports writers then. Now we got Loony Teddy still searching for his email proving Manny was on PEDs, and Oscar, Ring, Crack Daddy & l'l crack daddy jr still searching for his Olympic drug testing Certificate.

We still don't have an original copy of Clay/Cooper extended rest time that Dundee alleges extended at least one extra minute if not 2-3. All existent fight film has been scrubbed or spliced.

For the longest time Burns vs JJohnson was listed as a TKO until experts figured fight film had been spliced up out of sequence, and Johnson/Willard temp ringside was 120degrees when the weather data shows 85 degrees, all on top of JJ's over the top how he threw that fight and fanciful autobio.

Face the music, U muddled the Johnson vs Johnson and Langford vs Jeannette fight dates at very least. Maybe put on some Big Boy Pants and try harder.

[Ivich]

You haven't posted on source or reference since you started posting here. If Johnson really wanted to fight Jeannette, he would not have allegedly signed a contract in a state where he knew the fight could not take place. It's odd that Johnson found excuses not to fight the three top black fighters while champion, but he could give a title shot to Battling Jim Johnson in Paris, a guy who didn't beat anyone to earn that shot.

No I haven't, nobody has asked me to .Would you like the site of the proposed Johnson v Langford and Mcvey fights? The ,promoter? Johnsons purses for the two fights? How about the promoters statement as to why he pulled out of staging them? Johnson twice signed to defend against Jeannette the location was not of his choosing it was the promoters, who were based there and since Jeannette was popular in NY it made sound business sense. Johnson was 35 when he defended against 26years old Jim Johnson the challenger was no world beater but he drew with the best of them and occasionaly beat them.Was he any worse a challenger than Jack Munroe,John Finnegan, Bill Squires, Jem Roche or a hundred others?

[Willie Pep 229]

- - It can be assumed poor steak was munched up wif a plate of fava beans and French Chardonnay many moons ago.

Primary sources ain't infallible if you understand the Liquored up generation of sports writers then. Now we got Loony Teddy still searching for his email proving Manny was on PEDs, and Oscar, Ring, Crack Daddy & l'l crack daddy jr still searching for his Olympic drug testing Certificate.

We still don't have an original copy of Clay/Cooper extended rest time that Dundee alleges extended at least one extra minute if not 2-3. All existent fight film has been scrubbed or spliced.

For the longest time Burns vs JJohnson was listed as a TKO until experts figured fight film had been spliced up out of sequence, and Johnson/Willard temp ringside was 120degrees when the weather data shows 85 degrees, all on top of JJ's over the top how he threw that fight and fanciful autobio.

Face the music, U muddled the Johnson vs Johnson and Langford vs Jeannette fight dates at very least. Maybe put on some Big Boy Pants and try harder.

Like l said before we got another "I proved it" guy on the board. He has all the answers and he's always right. No matter what you say there will no enlightenment, the nickel is not going to suddenly drop and his brain engage, it's jammed in the slot, so just sit back and let him lecture, he'll get bored and move on.

The key phrases here are 'arrested development" - "socially awkward" - "doesn't play well with others."