Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[ShoulderRoll]

Not every wannabe champion fights all the avaliable contenders, he fights and beats just enough of them to get his title shot.

Johnson fought black contenders because those were the fights he coukd make. Once champion he didn't.

Dempsey had a nine fight , eight KO run to his title shot agsinst Willard and didn't need to fight black contenders to get into that position.

Once they were both champions, JJ and Dempsey both avoided Wills and the other holy three but for different reasons.

You need to get past this thing were you believe these fighters, black or white owed anybody anything.

It's not an 84 game NBA season; no one said fist fighting would ever be fair; you have a finite number of fights and you take the best ones that get you to your goal.

If in his title run Dempsey beats a black fighter no one cares, loses to a black fighter and he takes two steps backward.

You got to respect their reality if you're going to evaluate them.

First you chose the best fights to get to the title shot (for Dempsey fighting blacks fighters doesn't help get him there.) and then the best fight for the best money once Champion.

I'm just sick and tired of this false equivalency that some posters try to draw between Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey.

Johnson got in the ring with the men he is accused of ducking and proved himself their better. Dempsey never did with Jeannette, Langford, or Wills.

[travestyny]

Once they were both champions, JJ and Dempsey both avoided Wills

JJohnson had a fight scheduled with Wills, apparently. It was at the end of his career and I believe the commission wouldn't allow it, or something to that effect. The information was in Unforgivable Blackness, I believe.

[Ivich]

- - U gonna go hazy again?

Two of the most primary of primary sources that can be had, Cooper and Dundee in opposing camps say the rest period was delayed at least a minute if not more. Ya could look it up.

I don't know what U saw, but what I saw was no delay and yes, smelling salts, but what I saw was spliced after the fact with no original footage to be had, and near as I can tell, no unspliced footage of the fight in it's original form survives to date.

JJohnson was in fantastic shape for Willard. It's like U don't understand fight physiology or conditions. He had also fought a high paced 20 rounder vs Moran the year before. And as to JJ age, Willard was no spring chicken either with considerably less experience.

U as an ol' git in Havana being distressed by tropical humidity ain't the same as two fit fighters.

I mean???

I saw the BBC unaltered film of the fight a few nights later onTV Harry Carpenter had a stop watch running on the delay it was just a few seconds,
No splicing of films was done ,why would the original BBC film not be available I saw it onYou Tube a couple of years ago,it may be still there?

Cooper said Ali got a half to three quarters of a minute minutes extra ,that's BS it was seconds.To be precise 5 seconds extra.
That few seconds also afforded Danny Holland more time to work on Coopers eye cut.Do you really believe Cooper is an objective source here?
Cassius Clay vs Henry Cooper 18.6.1963 - YouTube


I have both Coopers autobiography and the 2 vols of Dundee's.
Here is what Dundee said. "meanwhile as I was trying to buy time Chickie Ferrara ,who was working the corner with me was pouring ice cubes down Cassius' trunks,breaking vials of smelling salts under his nose ,slapping his legs,doing everything he could to bring the dazed Cassius back to life." "Write ups later had the officials running back to the dressing room to get another pair,an event that most said took anywhere between half to six minutes.The time in actuality was but a few seconds". My View From The Corner by Angelo Dundee page 83
Johnson was in poor condition for the Willard fight he had rolls of fat around his hips and arse.FFS have you actually watched the fight? On March24th 1915 Johnson was publicly weighed he scaled 233lbs having reduced from over240lbs.Johnson hadnt been in real top shape since Reno 5 years earler where he weighed 208lbs, he was overweight against Moran and the footage of the fight shows his soft condition.In contrast Willard trained like a dog he was in the shape of his life and never to be so again. I don't understand fight physiology and conditions?I boxed for years. The fight with Moran was a slow waltz read the next day write ups ! Watch the film of the fight! Have you been to Cuba inApril , no? Then don;t presume to tell me about the weather there!
I should charge you for this education really lol .

[Ivich]

The heat and humidity isn't really the issue boxing history wise.

First off the temp was 72 to 74 degrees not in the mid 80s.

But the important part of the story is about JJ's story regarding his susposed tank job.

The Sims law (1912) wouldn't allow the fight film to be imported to the US but several clips, as still pictures, made their way into the country.

One infamous still (single frame) was of Johnson laying on his back with his knees up and his arm shielding his eyes.

This would all be debunked when the Sims law was repealed in 1940 and we got see that it was actually Johnson falling backwards in mid knockbdown and that his legs would lay flat on the canvas and his arm would fall back on his forehead as he slipped into unconsciousness.

But in 1920 when JJ was finally able to get back into the country (and do his one year time) he started floating the 'I took a dive' story and would point to the still photo and say something to the effect:

'See I'm not out, I'm holding my legs up off the canvas because the canvas was burning the back of my kegs, and I was shielding my eye from the blazing sun.'

Thus the 100 degree Hanvana day was born. Then with each telling the temperature rose a little, with some finally claiming it was 105 degrees.

Which with few Americans knowing anything about Cuba and thinking everything south of them must be hotter, it was an easy story to spread.

Willard wouldn't help matters either, because late in life he would confirm JJ's 100 degree story.

Willard did fight Dempsey in 100 degrees in Ohio in 1919 and it looks like Willard crossed his stories.

Or at least that is the conclusion from his latest biographor who went to Cuba and got the local newspaper and confirmed a low 70s day (with a decently high humidity.)

P.S. I don't the heat was there nor thAt it affected the outcome.

First of you don't know what the the humidity was .Willard referring to Johnson later saying he laid down said," if he did I wish he had done it a whole lot sooner ,it was hotter than hell in there" .
But of course you would know better. I've been to Havana in April ,during that actual week as a matter of fact.have you?Which of us would be better to give an opinion on it?
The day after the fight Johnson gave Willard full credit for his win and said the better man won, Jess knocked out 2 of his gold teeth.It was a genuine ko, a
37 years old undertrained man who had dissipated for years just ran out of gas and the weather sure didnt help any though I dont think the result would have been any different had they fought in say New England in the winter. Johnson hadnt been in real good shape for years,and he hadn't needed to be,against a giant trained to the minute who took everything he could give him for 20rds and then came back for more ,landing his own heavy shots it wasn't enough.

[Ivich]

I'm just sick and tired of this false equivalency that some posters try to draw between Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey.

Johnson got in the ring with the men he is accused of ducking and proved himself their better. Dempsey never did with Jeannette, Langford, or Wills.

Jeannette and Langford were back numbers when Dempsey won the title in1919. Jeannette was nearly 40 years old and Langford had been blind in one eye since the Fulton fight in1917.If Dempsey had defended his title against them ,all the knockers would be out in force on here, condemning him for taking on old, past their sell by dates relics.

[QueensburyRules]

I saw the BBC unaltered film of the fight a few nights later onTV Harry Carpenter had a stop watch running on the delay it was just a few seconds,
No splicing of films was done ,why would the original BBC film not be available I saw it onYou Tube a couple of years ago,it may be still there?

Cooper said Ali got a half to three quarters of a minute minutes extra ,that's BS it was seconds.To be precise 5 seconds extra.
That few seconds also afforded Danny Holland more time to work on Coopers eye cut.Do you really believe Cooper is an objective source here?
Cassius Clay vs Henry Cooper 18.6.1963 - YouTube


I have both Coopers autobiography and the 2 vols of Dundee's.
Here is what Dundee said. "meanwhile as I was trying to buy time Chickie Ferrara ,who was working the corner with me was pouring ice cubes down Cassius' trunks,breaking vials of smelling salts under his nose ,slapping his legs,doing everything he could to bring the dazed Cassius back to life." "Write ups later had the officials running back to the dressing room to get another pair,an event that most said took anywhere between half to six minutes.The time in actuality was but a few seconds". My View From The Corner by Angelo Dundee page 83
Johnson was in poor condition for the Willard fight he had rolls of fat around his hips and arse.FFS have you actually watched the fight? On March24th 1915 Johnson was publicly weighed he scaled 233lbs having reduced from over240lbs.Johnson hadnt been in real top shape since Reno 5 years earler where he weighed 208lbs, he was overweight against Moran and the footage of the fight shows his soft condition.In contrast Willard trained like a dog he was in the shape of his life and never to be so again. I don't understand fight physiology and conditions?I boxed for years. The fight with Moran was a slow waltz read the next day write ups ! Watch the film of the fight! Have you been to Cuba inApril , no? Then don;t presume to tell me about the weather there!
I should charge you for this education really lol .

- - U should change U charged up BigBoys

It's not unusual for boxing folk to change their stories. I know what I have read and both Cooper and Dundee were in agreement over the extended rest period.

Nor do U know if the footage U were shown was spliced after the fact. The Beeb cannot prove one way or another because they lost or otherwise taped over a historic fight of controversy on their bonnie isle on their watch, and have admitted to such. Why would all current existent film of that fight be spliced at that moment?

I watched presumably all existent film of Moron/Johnson and it was pillar to post action. Fight writers routinely disagree with each other because of ties to fighters exacerbated by the subjective nature bordering on criminal intent in the officiating of fights.

OK, you stiil know squat about human physiology regarding fighters. Many trainers have also ruined fighters by their routines. If you indeed boxed for years, surely must have a record link...Waiting for Godot

[Ivich]

- - U should change U charged up BigBoys

It's not unusual for boxing folk to change their stories. I know what I have read and both Cooper and Dundee were in agreement over the extended rest period.

Nor do U know if the footage U were shown was spliced after the fact. The Beeb cannot prove one way or another because they lost or otherwise taped over a historic fight of controversy on their bonnie isle on their watch, and have admitted to such. Why would all current existent film of that fight be spliced at that moment?

I watched presumably all existent film of Moron/Johnson and it was pillar to post action. Fight writers routinely disagree with each other because of ties to fighters exacerbated by the subjective nature bordering on criminal intent in the officiating of fights.

OK, you stiil know squat about human physiology regarding fighters. Many trainers have also ruined fighters by their routines. If you indeed boxed for years, surely must have a record link...Waiting for Godot

You 're not going to accept any primary sourced quotes from either Cooper or Dundee Nor will you agree the film was not spliced though you have no valid explanation why it would be done ,The fight is in its original entire state onYou Tube with Carpenter unequivocally stating the extra time was 5 seconds you won't accept this You say the Moran v Johnson fight was pillar to post action and that is flat out BS I first watched it on Super 8mm in the 60;s whenI bought a compilation of Johnsons fights from Classic Boxing I've since bought a restored collection on DVD and have Georges Carpentier's recollections of the fight,he was the referee. I also have Pollacks excellent and diligently researched account of the fight and contemporary news reports.Johnson badly damaged his hand in the fight and it was very swollen when his gloves were cut off.Johnson was in no shape to go a fast 20rds and the consensus was that it was a slow poor dull event and that Johnson was lucky he wasn't in there with a better opponent.
NB Only highlights of the fight exist so what is available are the best clips.
La Presse ." Moran did nothing.He rarely attacked ,doing so only only two or three times.But above all he simply tried to finish the 20 rds.During one of the rounds Moran ran around the ring10 times.Johnson ,fed up with following his not so courageous adversary,stopped and waited for him." It was not a fight ,but rather a bunch of gestures and grimaces.Neither man was effective.
Johnson was not in shape and was a shadow of what he could have been,His hits lacked both precision and power."
L'a Humanite." Johnson had a bad fight but kept his title.Johnson certainly won on points,but the proof was there that Johnson was no longer Johnson,"
L' Intransigeant." A more courageous adversary than Moran would have won,the two men's reputations led to the hope that it would the heck of a fight.However from the first round Moran gave the impression of being hypnotized.No meeting had ever been so solemn ,sad,colorless,dull or drab."" Johnson did not have one moment where he could really apply himself ,but it wasn't his fault.He was discouraged from to him and get back to work."
Le Matin. "The exhibition was ridiculous and comedic," " Johnson was heavy fat and slow."
William Brady. Manager of Corbett and Jeffries."It was a second rate exhibition."
I have about a dozen similar ringside reports but of course you would dismiss them ,because, you having seen a few seconds of edited highlights ,know better and the truth blatantly contradicts your obvious agenda.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous your position is on this?

My identity is my business.

In closing you offer no primary sources for your illogical denials, just a lot of hot air, and so I've come to the conclusion its a complete waste of my time trying to debate with you and your closed mind.

[QueensburyRules]

You 're not going to accept any primary sourced quotes from either Cooper or Dundee Nor will you agree the film was not spliced though you have no valid explanation why it would be done ,The fight is in its original entire state onYou Tube with Carpenter unequivocally stating the extra time was 5 seconds you won't accept this You say the Moran v Johnson fight was pillar to post action and that is flat out BS I first watched it on Super 8mm in the 60;s whenI bought a compilation of Johnsons fights from Classic Boxing I've since bought a restored collection on DVD and have Georges Carpentier's recollections of the fight,he was the referee. I also have Pollacks excellent and diligently researched account of the fight and contemporary news reports.Johnson badly damaged his hand in the fight and it was very swollen when his gloves were cut off.Johnson was in no shape to go a fast 20rds and the consensus was that it was a slow poor dull event and that Johnson was lucky he want in there with a better opponent. My identity is my business.

In closing you offer no primary sources for your illogical denials, just a lot of hot air, and so I've come to the conclusion its a complete waste of my time trying to debate with you and your closed mind.

- - U not accepting primary sourced, ie from participants Cooper and Dundee that I have read about.

Nor can U certify the Tube fight U referenced wasn't doctored.

JJ hand busted because he fought his a$$ off

U identity indeed U business, and that and $5 these days might get U good cup o Joe to wash down U jive

[Ivich]

- - U not accepting primary sourced, ie from participants Cooper and Dundee that I have read about.

Nor can U certify the Tube fight U referenced wasn't doctored.

JJ hand busted because he fought his a$$ off

U identity indeed U business, and that and $5 these days might get U good cup o Joe to wash down U jive

I've given you Coopers and Dundees primary source quotes I have their autobiographies.You've produced JACK **** ! Fella, you're full of bombastic twaddle.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm just sick and tired of this false equivalency that some posters try to draw between Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey.

Johnson got in the ring with the men he is accused of ducking and proved himself their better. Dempsey never did with Jeannette, Langford, or Wills.

- - Dempsey tried multiple x to get in the ring with Wills.

JJohnson never did with Wills. Both Wills and Jeannette on record as saying lil Sam was the best fighter of their era, and that JJohnson ducked all of them while holding his title.

Ya could look it up!