With the exception of 2 fights with Taylor, who has fought a past-his-prime Hopkins and only managed a draw with Wright, who exactly has Pavlik been in the ring with? A past-his-prime never-was in McKart? A short-on-talent puncher in Miranda?
his opponents through 33 fights:
465-249-36 (62% winning record)
Calzaghe has had a lot of whodafucks on his record, but even (barely) past-his prime Eubank is as good as a Prime Taylor, if not better. Robin Reid is a helluva fighter, as is Omar Sheika. Charles Brewer is at least the equal of a prime McKart, and definitely better than the McKart that Pavlik fought.
Calzaghe also has the advantage of having gotten all the people with ridiculously bad records out of his way while still early in his career (18th fight). Pavlik fought his last tomato can only 8 fights ago.
His opponents through 33 fights:
613-262-23 (68% winning record)
I have to give a slight edge to Joe through 33 fights.
I think a fight between Pavlik and Calzaghe would be interesting, and I would want to give Pavlik the edge because of his youth, but his style of bull-rush fighting is too similar to that of Lacy, and I don't see a single southpaw with the craft of Joe on his record. If Joe doesn't get caught, I have to say Joe by decision.
I gave him only 3 rounds, and only because Ledesma was just staying out of the way in the 10th. If Stark was any kind of man he would not have allowed the ref to raise his arm after that scoring.
I had it a draw.
1, 3-7 for Spinks
2, 8-12 for Karmazin
There were enough rounds that could have gone either way, though, so I would have been ok with a close decision either way.
My fantasy final score was 114-112 Karmazan, having penalized Spinks 2 points for his overly long and obnoxious ringwalk.
I have to question how much of a step up this will be for Salitas. I don't know if Gatti has enough left in the tank to challenge the young bull.
Two things are certain, though.
This fight would pack the Garden
Gatti would give whatever he has left in this fight
And this is coming from one of the forum's biggets Toney nuthuggers :confused:
I'm speechless
I've never been a nuthugger for any boxer. I like the sport, not the individuals involved in it.
Right is right, wrong is wrong.
Gunstar, I had it closer than the judges had it, but I still had Peter winning. It was a matter of effectiveness, and while Toney was landing a few good shots every now and then, they did nothing to stop Peter from coming forward. On the other hand, Peter's jab was knocking Toney backwards.
I've long been a proponent of mandatory drug testing for judges, and of late it seems to be needed even more.
For fights, Tito faced the better opposition. Tito fought the common opponents early in their careers where DLH fought faded versions later, ala Vargas, who was never same after Tito. Tito also had fewer gifts given him.
Overall in boxing, though, you have to go with DLH. I don't really like the man, but he was the face of boxing for year, and brought many new fans to the sport. He continues to build a legacy outside the ring by bringing legendary fighters together into Golden Boy Promotions.
Also, even though DLH was given many gifts, (Whittaker, Quartey, Sturm all pop to mind), the one big gift that Tito got was DLH, and that will count in the reckoning more because it was 2 legends in the ring.
Actually Toney landed more punches and also landed the more of the effective punches. Peter missed most of his punches.
How can you call Toney's punches effective when they had abosultely no effect on his opponent?
Oh c'mon Martin, like if Oscar could make 130 now...Even when he started at 130 he was one big 103 pounder.
At 130 lbs he would, indeed, be one big 103 pounder ;)
I am more impressed with smaller guys coming up in weight and beating naturally larger fighters than smaller guys coming up and beating fighters who started out as small as they did.
As for Oscar having fought at Middleweight, in his first fight he got outboxed for 12 rounds and got the biggest gift decision in recent history so he could make the multi-million dollar PPV and get KO'd by Hopkins. If he had actually won a fight at Middleweight I would be more impressed with his foray there.
Mayweather more crafty that Hopkins and Winky? :nonono: Hopkins did imo his best performance againt Tito and Winky performed a very "safe" defensive fight against Tito.
I don't like Mayweather any more than I like De La Hoya, but I give them both credit where it's due. Mayweather is one of the most highly skilled boxers I have ever seen in my life, and he is crafty without using his elbows, unlike Hopkins.
My ideal outcome for De La Hoya v Mayweather would be a double career-ending double knock out.
...knock the other fighter down.
Toney did promise he would.So did Peter.
I had it close, too, but a Peter win. Truthfully, I would rather have seen Toney win, but not out of great love for Toney. I think Peter has been brought along far too fast and will never have time to develop the skills he will need to be a champ because of it. His career has been sacrificed so we could have a heavy puncher in the limelight of the division. The problem is, he's never been taught to properly set up the punches, or even how to throw them consistently. While he has great power, he damned neaar has to get lucky to hurt you with it because of this.
Of course it's also entirely possible that he could never be taught good technique as well.
Vargas was still the same fighter after tito, after tito beat vargas up. Vargas easily won two fights in a row by tko and won the wba title again before facing oscar. I'm sick of people keep saying oscar was give gift decision crap. The whittaker and the quartey fights was easily a close fight that could go either way. Whoever think otherwise is an idiot. The one fight i say oscar should of not won is the sturm fight but that's oscar fought for being way out of shape. The bottomline is oscar has way better legacy then tito and whoever think otherwise don't know crap about boxing.
The 2 wins that Vargas got after Tito destroyed him were against:
Wilfredo Rivera, who lost every time he stepped up the competition, then went on to lose against b-level opposition like Michael Lerma. Rivera, not known for his punching power KD'd Vargas if memory serves.
Jose Flores, who had 8 or 9 losses on his record and really shouldn't have been fighting for even a minor level belt.
Not exactly stellar opposition. Both fighters were tough and gave everyhing they had in the ring, but neither really brought all that much to bring to begin with.
What happened after those wins?
If you think that Vargas was the same fighter after Tito, then it's most likely so you dont have to admit that DLH fought an all but shot version of him, and was losing on many peoples' scorecards before he got the KO.
I have to admit, though, that the KO punch was a thing of beauty. A friend said it was a lucky punch, but you could see DLH measure and fire all in the same breath.
I'm sick of people keep saying oscar was give gift decision crap. The whittaker and the quartey fights was easily a close fight that could go either way. Whoever think otherwise is an idiot. The one fight i say oscar should of not won is the sturm fight but that's oscar fought for being way out of shape. The bottomline is oscar has way better legacy then tito and whoever think otherwise don't know crap about boxing.
Yet both fights are listed by many boxing insiders as some of the worst robberies in recent memory.
Your lack of ability to see where others might have valid opinions, even when they disagree with yours, marks you as someone who should never be taken seriously regarding boxing, and probably everything else as well.
Will we let people who couldn't pick Margarito, Paul Williams, Jorge Arce, Acelino Freitas and Casamayor out of a police lineup define Legacy? If so then yes, DLH "The Face of Boxing" will have a better Legacy than Trinidad.
Unfortunately, that's the way a legacy is defined. Because of his continued invovlement in boxing, DLH will be remember longer and by more people.
Within boxing, the true fans are too divided as to who was better inside the ring, so DLH will come out on because of his outside involvement. Fair? Not really, but little in life is.
That is a ridiculous price for his card. It's barely FNF material.
I would like to see Holy v Oquendo because I think it's about the right step up for Holy to see if Bates was just too easy to keep a high workrate with. Oquendo, assuming he hasn't faded badly, will give Holyfield a good fight.
All that said, I wouldn't pay to see it.
you and one other person had peter winning, check your eyes.
My eyes are fine. I just don't get emotionally involved in love or hate of a fighter, so I have no problems with bias.
And it was me and 3 other people.
If Tito doesn't knock you out he has no answers for that and if you can move and box he is lost, as he showed against Oscar,B-Hop, and Winky.
Yet he beat Sweetpea convincingly whereas De La Hoya's win is considered controversial. How many boxers in history have been able to move and box well as Sweetpea? It's a very short list.
Yeah, I can understand how that could be perceived by the public as a great victory.
Not to mention that JCC had only lost 1 fight in 99 up to that point. Granted, most of the opposition were "Tijuana Taxi Drivers", but it's still an amazing record.
thats just stupid oscar is a intense competator and he is a fighter through and through you don't become what oscar has become and have any phathom of quit in you.
At least not without a few gifts along the way...
Here's a side-by-side comparison of common opponents (and a nice who's who of boxing, to say the least):
Tito De La Hoya
Record Result Record Result Ricardo Mayorga 24-4-1 W TKO 8 28-5-1 W TKO 6 Bernard Hopkins 39-2-1 L TKO 12 44-2-1 L KO 9 Fernando Vargas 20-0-0 W TKO 12 22-1-0 W TKO 11 Pernell Whitaker 40-2-1 W UD 12 40-1-1 W UD 12 Oba Carr 32-0-0 W TKO 8 48-2-1 W TKO 11 Luis Ramon Campas 56-0-0 W TKO 4 80-5-0 W TKO 7 Hector Camacho 43-2-0 W UD 12 63-3-1 W UD 12
With the exceptions of Sweetpea, Tito fought the opposition earlier in their careers while 4 of the 7 were still undefeated. He garnered
better results against opposition that was still in its prime, whereas De La Hoya fought them on the downside of their careers and still, for the most part, took longer to put them away.
In their one common loss, De La Hoya was put down faster and more brutally.
Of course this in and of itself proves nothing, but it is telling. Both fighters fought great opposition that the other never touched, and De La Hoya did it across more weight divisions.
Even though I liked Tito much more than De La Hoya, I still have to give the edge to De La Hoya overall.
Tito has been destroyed twice, oscar never got beat down by anyone. The nature of those beat downs outstrip oscars controversial wins. Oscar did get beat by hopkins but he stood in there and made a fight of it were tito got raped by hopkins or so I see it. Oscar also fought mosley twice lost both but they were close. oscar also won a gold medal to boot.
Oscar got beat much worse by Hopkins, and faster, than Tito did.
Ok, my prediction
Toney, letting his head get full of all the crap about how he won, thinks that he doesn't need to train and steps into the ring at an even 300.
Peter, hoping he will finally get to land that one big bomb eats some extra KFC in camp so he can put more weight behind his wild swings and enters the ring at 325.
In the 6th round, Peter gets Toney against the ropes and while the 2 fighters are exchanging inside punches, their combined weight overbalances the ring and it tips over on its side, killing a drunken Larry Merchant, launching referee Eddie Cotton into the 5th row, where he lands in lap of Mills Lane, causing him yet another stroke.
The fight is ruled a No Decision, the WBC keeps their sanctioning fees and orders an immediate rematch.
did you shut off your tv right before Lennon Jr. announced the scores or something? maybe just didn't even watch and read the results on the net..
The only people i can see honestly not liking this news are Sam Peter fans..
or people who don't want to see Mêlée at The Buffet II.
I don't care about his sexuality, Emmile Griffith is still a really nice guy who is fun to talk to. A true living legend.
http://myspace-956.vo.llnwd.net/01009/65/97/1009297956_l.jpg
I don't care about a boxer's sexuality either, This was just an experiment to see if i could get retardmon123 and xcrement's heads to explode by insinuating that Oscar was gay.
I know I'm likely out this week, and it doen't matter, but I meant to pick Brewer. I didn't think much of him coming into the show, but he showed improvement every fight and I thought he would be too much for Forbes.
I guess I will have to learn to read my posts before they go through.
And DLH never beat Campas. Your saying that Tito's career is lacking to that of DLH's based on that fact that Tito didn't beat an over the hill JCC:ugh:
Oscar beat Campas in 2003. Of course it was after he already had 5 KO losses on his record, whereas he was undefeated when he faced Trinidad.
Sorry, but you're no boxing expert.
How the HELL do you know the effects of Toney's punches. Has James ever punched you in the face. Stop acting like your name is Samuel Peter.
Obviously you know nothing of how the sport works.
blah blah blah
Maybe boxers should judge other boxers instead of blind old men who are looking for hand outs. I've been in and around boxing since you were still swimming around in the
mail man's nutsack, so please don't presume to judge what I might and might not know about the sport.
You, on the other hand, show your complete ignorance in your implication that because a punch might sting it is effective.
No, I haven't been punched in the face by Toney, and I hope I never do, but the fact that his punches may have hurt a little on Peter has no bearing on whether or not they were effective.
Effectiveness is determined by how your punches, well, AFFECT your opponent. Not a single punch landed by Toney had any visible effect on Peter. Not once did Toney stop Peter from coming forward and swinging. The one time it looked like he stunned Peter, Peter was off balance and tired. Peter visibly shook Toney on several occasions throughout the fight and had Toney moving backwards. Toney can't punch moving backwards.
If fights were judges solely on defense and the ability to make the other figher miss, Toney would have won easily. In fact, it was his slickness that gave him several rounds from me, but still not enough to win.
I think Toney is a shoe-in for first ballot HOF, and I love to watch him fight, but he still didn't do enough to win this one.
Maybe boxers should judge other boxers instead of blind old men who are looking for hand outs.I agree on this point.
duva is scaaaared! hahaha
if he won it so handedly why not fight him agian and knock his so called fat ass out ?
i've never heard someone cry so hard to avoid a rematch ...
they acting like they robbed a bankWhat about Toney crying like a bitch for a rematch? He lost fair and sqaure. Be a man and change your fucking diaper, James.
I don't know if I would call any of the actors you listed "notable", but they are fun to watch.
Notable would be people with some sort of range in their acting, like Clive Owen, or Christian Bale.
Apparently he earned a shot at Eubank's title by beating the legendary Eduardo Domingo Contreras
Stretch's records is a veritable "Who the fuck was he?" of boxing.
Hell of a record that Contreras boy had, W 18 (0 ko's) | L 43 ROFL
and 16 draws. When you only have 2 more wins than draws in a 78 fight career your sport maybe should have been croquet.