kendom

Its hard, Foreman might have been a more important win, but his performance against Liston was much better in my opinion. I own a video of the fight in Zaire and as part of the package it has Ali's first fight with Liston as an added bonus, and Ali looks so much faster and more invincible against Liston. But considering the circumstances, by a close margin I'll pick Foreman.

2nd year Biology student. 4.0 GPA. All State Track High School Started AM Boxing.. just weeks ago and is already 4-0. Displayed shocking natural abilities and surreal power. Been going out with a college hottie. (who's not even on the level of former GF,but still elite) Won 16 straight NBA Bets. Beat up a bully who was trying to punk 2 kids smaller than he was. Voluteer hour at Old Folks home.. read to them and sang to them. They loved me. Saved a whale off the coast of SF. part of animal rescue team,. Met Paris Hilton at gala... rejected her flirtations because of HIV Rumors. Drew another painting of Lennox Lewis. Former Painting currently on display. Discovered a way to hack into BangBros... Wtf HAVE YOU DONE lately? :rofl::rofl:

I cant help but feel sorry for boxers who end up broke, but at the end of the day if you lose millions you have to take personal responsibility somewhere down the line. What I've always noticed about fighters who lose their money is a reckless attitude towards money when they have it, and a reckless lifestyle that's not conducive to long term wealth.

Billy Conn

F*ck me I struggled to get through all of that.

Also back then if you had a few losses you still wasnt a bum or washed up or done or any of this other childish shlt Exactly boxing fans weren't too obsessed about losses back then because they knew that it came with the territory with fighting good fighters so often, it would just have been seen as an "unlucky night". Ppl underestimate the magnitude of going 90 fights unbeaten fighting that often, ppl criticise Robinson for draws but its incredible that with that work schedule he never lost.

It has to do with the nature of boxing back then. Boxers kept fit by fighting often, because there was more competition and fighters were paid less they had to fight more often, and in between having to fight legitimate contenders, they would fight week in, week out in "keep busy" fights in order to make extra money, they werent going to turn down the chance of a good payday if they had one. For example Sugar Ray Robinson fought middleweight puncher Artie Levine six weeks before his fight with Tommy Bell for the welterweight championship in December 1946, 5 days earlier he had fought Cecil Harris. These were "keep busy" fights that guaranteed good paydays. Hence why some of the old timers have fighters with dodgy resumes on their records. Doesnt matter because they still fought a ridiculous amount of great fighters.

and the other guys? Ray Robinson doesn't reflect everyone. He reflects the nature of boxing back then. Same thing can be applied to the others

I would pick Pacquiao over Armstrong in a hearbeat. Armstrong was slow as hell and only fought handpicked opponents that stood right in front of him. Ceferino Garcia is considered one of his "tough" fights but all Garcia did was play tough guy and stand toe to toe with him all night. Barney Ross aka Dov-Ber "Beryl" David Rosofsky was a mob guy with ties to Capone who probably got more gifts than a little girl on her 5th birthday because from watching his fights he's overrated as hell. You watch his fight with Armstrong and he is total garbage. The history nerds claim he was shot, but he was only around 30, lol. How do you handpick your way to winning three undisputed titles in 3 weight divisions?????

I would say this counts as one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0hZKnQ07IE EDIT: I would say the BEST example would be this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47UVZSvDVgI at about 5:20

Pryor- Arguello I 1982- Hyped up as an incredible exciting fight. Didnt find it that way, too one-sided for my liking. Benn-McCllenan 1995- Overhyped in my opinion, too one sided at some points for my liking, I think it was mainly the tragedy that gives this fight that special lure because I dint find it that intriguing.

He is absolutely right. Lots of fans and boxing experts don't think he was the greatest of all time. He had flaws. He lost 19 fights. He had draws and split decisions even when he was young and in his prime.Some of those close fights the crowd thought he lost. The old timers kept saying he was the best so anyone who did not think he was the greatest just kept quiet. I have seen others I thought were better. I am not saying he was not great. I just don't think he was the greatest. Could he beat a prime Hagler or Monzon or Hopkins? I don't think so.Floyd Mayweather thinks he is better. Mayby he is. Kendom, PFP is a matter of opinion not a matter of long lists. Your are welcome to your opinion of Robinson but you can't force your opinion on me. I know Robinson's record very well. I have it in front of me now and I have studied it many times. I know who he fought, what the age, record and weight of both Robinson and his opponent was, and how the fight was scored. I am a 53 year veteran of watching boxing so I make up my own mind on who I think is best. I don't give a damn what others think unless I have never seen the fighter in action. I have seen plenty of films of Robinson and even saw him fight live in an exibition fight. I have also seen plenty of the guys I rate over him. You left out the fact that Robinson lost to Basilio, a welterweight who he out weighed by 7 pounds. He lost to Turpin in his prime. He beat Fullmer once and lost to Fullmer twice. He lost to LaMotta and he lost to Ralgh Jones by a large margin when he was 33 years old and never gave Jones a tittle shot. He beat Armstrong when he was 23 and Armstrong was 33 and wased up after 160 pro fights. He also outweighed Armstrong by 6 pounds. So much for your list. As for Floyd not being better, Floyd said he was better than Robinson. I just said maybe he is. You can't say for sure he isn't better because they never fought and have no common opponents so it's just your opinion, not fact. I do know Floyd is 35 and has not lost yet and has had only two fights that were even close. By the time Robinson was 35 he had lost lots of fights The draws and split decisions he had in his prime were not a result of him fighting several times in one month but nice try with your excuses. If he was so superior why would the crowd think he lost? Some of the experts agreed with the crowd. So you keep Robinson as your pfp greatest of all time and I will keep my picks. 1) I'm not trying to "enforce" any opinion on you. You typed your post and so left yourself open to criticism. Fighters are usually ranked by resume, accomplishments, longevity and to a lesser extent ability. Ray Robinson has all in abundance. Its not just from word of mouth as you claimed in your earlier post. 2) Robinson lost to Basilio when he was 37 and had over 150 fights of mileage on him, people had been telling him to retire years earlier, he was way past his best, it was still a close decision and he beat him in the rematch. Fullmer also got Robinson past his prime and Robinson knocked him out the second time, he was robbed the third time when he was 39 and was beaten the 4th time when he was 40. 3) Armstrong wasnt "washed up" he was undoubtedly past his best but he had beaten Fritzie Zivic a year before and was one of the top ranked fighters in the welterweight division at the time, and Robinson had to fight him to get a title shot 4) LOL at "excuses" the guy was fighting multiple times every month, Floyd doesnt have anywhere near the resume Robinson has, you're telling me that if Floyd was fighting multiple times a month against ranked contenders that he wouldn't have hang ups on his record? unless you can provide newspaper reports showing experts of the time agreeing that the controversial opinions should have gone against Robinson you don't really have much of an argument.

He is absolutely right. Lots of fans and boxing experts don't think he was the greatest of all time. He had flaws. He lost 19 fights. Most while he was shot or past his prime. The only fighter to ever beat him in his prime was top 10 ATG middleweight Jake Lamotta while he was a welterweight. He had draws and split decisions even when he was young and in his prime. Happens when you're fighting multiple times a month. Some of those close fights the crowd thought he lost. Except the boxing experts of the time. The old timers kept saying he was the best so anyone who did not think he was the greatest just kept quiet. NO only when it comes it comes to people like Jack Demspey can you say these things. Joe Ghnouly Pete Lello Maxie Shapiro Maxie Berger Norman Rubio x2 Tony Motisi Reuben Shank Izzy Jannazzo x4 Ralph Zannelli Sheik Rangel Tommy Bell x2 George Costner x2 Jose Basora x2 Jimmy McDaniels Cecil Hudson x2 Georgie Abrams Jimmy Doyle Bernard Docusen Vic Dellicurti Steve Belloise Aaron Wade Ray Barnes Robert Villemain x2 Charley Fusari Bobby Dykes Holly Mims Artie Levine Cyrille Delanoit Rocky Castellani Denny Moyer Hans Stretz Ralph Dupas Sammy Angott x3 Fritzie Zivic x2 Jake LaMotta x5 Henry Armstrong Kid Gavilan x2 Carl Olson x4 Randolph Turpin Rocky Graziano Gene Fullmer Carmen Basilio Note: all fighters listed were rated in the RING's top ten at one point or another. Fighters in large are Hall of Famers. THIS is the reason why people say he's the greatest off all time, along with his style of course. I have seen others I thought were better. I am not saying he was not great. I just don't think he was the greatest. Could he beat a prime Hagler or Monzon or Hopkins? I don't think so.Floyd Mayweather thinks he is better. Mayby he is. Floyd Mayweather is definetly NOT greater than Ray Robinson.

There are more boxers than ever before. This can be confirmed by boxrec. It doesn't make sense for there to be less boxers since boxing exploded on the global scene only in the early 1990s. Communism didn't even allow Eastern Euros to fight pro at the time. China and India didn't get involved until recently. There are now 50,000 female boxers in the UK alone. That alone is more than there ever have been before. The growth of boxing in Europe has been huge and pretty noticeable. Boxing is considered the fastest growing sport in the UK even right now. It could be argued the reason many of the old timers fought such horrible opponents is because there was likely a lack of competition available. For example Dempsey who fought someone with a 2-1 record in the prime of his career. Then we have the fact people say Rocky fought everyone there was to fight, so does that mean there was no one good to fight? Were bums with 20 losses and zero wins really the best available? Weird, I thought boxing was the biggest sport in the US. Couldn't they find someone better? This is what I'm talking about. All you have is stuff you heard off other people and ad-hominem attacks to stand behind. You state your own opinion as fact then call other people stupid for not agreeing with you. Either back up what you say or keep your mouth shut. And here's the big one AND I MEAN THE BIG ONE no one ever wants to bring up. If boxing was one of the top sports in the US then how come they weren't constantly selling out super stadium. How come Marcianno was fighting in front of crowds of only 5k? How come Ali fought Sonny in front of the smallest crowd in HW title fight history? If boxing was the biggest sport they would have been selling out super stadiums constantly, but no, boxing has, and only will ever sell out stadiums for those really big fighters. They were selling out super stadiums constantly Beau Jack a f****** lightweight headlined madison square garden a record 21 times. Super stadiums were sold out for all the big fights If boxing was not one of the biggest sports how could a lightweight have achieved this? And if boxing wasnt one of the most popular sports can you name me a sport from that time more popular than boxing with the exception of perhaps baseball? The Ali fight took place in Lewiston maine because of issues relating to contracts and licensing, not because boxing was less popular lol Their $3.5-million closed-circuit television contracts for the Muhammad Ali-Sonny Liston rematch set for May 25 in the Boston Garden are threatened by a Boston prosecutor who claims they are not properly licensed in Massachusetts. Privately, the prosecutor feels the bout will be "a set-up" and wants no part of it. He has gone to court to halt the fight. The fight has already suffered one postponement when Ali was rushed to the hospital for a hernia operation. If it were postponed again, it would probably never be held. The promoters remember that Sam Michael once had suggested Maine for the fight. The proposal had seemed ludicrous at the time, but now they need a refuge for their fight http://new.yankeemagazine.com/article/night-lewiston-maine-can-never-forget

I don't know if you noticed but a lightweight can sell out stadiums today still, a filipino one even. As I've said, it's all about name value. Am I expecting every fight to sell out super stadiums? No of course not, but I do expect every baseball game and football match to sell out stadiums. Boxing can't do that, because it is and always will be a much smaller than both sports outside the big names. Boxing takes place in an arena, football belongs in stadiums. When football takes place in an arena and boxing takes place in stadiums, only then will boxing be bigger. Boxing today only has a small number of fighters today who can sell out massively, back then it had so much more, the fact that there were far more emphasis on gyms and boxing clubs meant that boxing was far more frequently watched by a larger percentage of the population, fighting towns like Pittsburgh would have local rivalries as with the case of Zivic-Conn which sold out the arena it was on and almost caused a riot as hundreds were turned away. This doesn't give a clear image but if you search for boxing gyms around New York City on Google maps you get over 2000 results. Sure there's bound to be MMA and Muay Thai gyms mixed in there. This site here lists something around 100 gyms that teach boxing in New York: http://www.boxinggyms.com/addresses/newyork.htm And also you're ignoring the main thing every one else has been ignoring from the start of this debate, the giant elephant in the room: BOXING IS NOW MUCH BIGGER WORLD WIDE. China, Eastern Europe and India are pretty much brand new inductees to the sport. The UK and Ireland now have more dedication to boxing than ever before. Back in the days of Barry McGuiggan boxing gyms were shoddy, these days in Ireland there's at least 2 advanced gyms in every town. Even Middle Eastern countries have recently been getting more into it. South Africa is also seeing a strong boxing boom right now. Boxing is taught in over 2000 secondary schools in the UK. The US could run completely out of boxers and there'd still be more boxers than ever before. It makes no sense for there to be less when there are now countries that had almost zero boxing culture participating on the world stage these days. Even womens boxing has seen a huge boom and there seem to be more amateur boxers than ever before. To talk about the pros, thanks to Pacman there are even more Filipinos than ever turning pro because they want to emulate him. You're forgetting that America still holds the monopoly of population on boxing, embarrassingly America produces more heavyweights than almost all the Eastern European nations put together, the fact that at least 6'000 less boxers than there used to be is a huge detriment to the sport. I live in the UK and i dont see this great boxing boom apart from a few fighters unless of course you count the whole olympics spirit which is going to die out anyway. and what Indian, Chinese pro fighters have you noticed? most people in the UK have probably never heard of Floyd Mayweather before.

MSG isn't a large scale stadium, and the stadiums Jack did appear in were for the most part in the 18k range. And still we're on the same page as before, only names sell the fights. I know the reason the fight was in maine. The point is you wouldn't have a super bowl final or major league baseball game with such a small crowd. A consistently huge sport should be played in stadiums, not small arenas. Someday Mayweather-Pac might sell our 100k seats or whatever in Yankee stadium, should historians look back and assume boxing was the biggest sport? Other sports? You know American football was around then right? Then there's horse racing, stock car racing, baseball. Plenty of the sports around today were available back then. They didn't just appear out of nowhere. Even cricket had a good following in the US back then. How many fights today would sell out large scale stadiums apart from May- Pac, because The fact that a lightweight was able to headline more times than any other in a record that still holds today should show you the extent of boxing's popularity. It was boxing that brought MSG to the limelight and Fritzie Zivic vs Henry Armstrong still holds the record for attendance and of course only big name fighters would sell out, just like the big superbowl games and so forth would sell. Are you expecting every boxing fight to sell out super stadiums? As for the Lewiston Maine fight, it was hosted there because of a necessity, the fight couldn't handle another postponement and also there was a lot of fear surrounding that fight due to Nation of Islam and so forth, it is a mark of boxings popularity that politics and boxing in that time were so intertwined. Yes i know there were other sports but were they more popular than boxing through? . Steven Reiss, a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, wrote, “By the start of 1913 there were 89 boxing clubs in the state of New York, including 49 in New York City” There were over 20 boxing shows a week in New York City during this period. In 1994 there were only 19 during the whole year Consider for example that in 1927 there were 2,000 licensed professional boxers residing in the state of New York, and that over 900 boxing shows were promoted throughout the state. In 2006 the state licensed 50 pro boxers and staged just 38 shows. Or that during the 1920’s and 1930’s approximately 8,000 – 10,000 professional boxers were licensed annually in the U.S., while in 2006 that figure had dropped to 2,850 http://www.mikesilverboxing.com/works.htm

I read some retard call Floyd a coward on youtube because he mastered defence and any fighter who mastered defense to the level Mayweather has is a coward. :pat:

Exactly.so why sh1t on the fighters we get the privilege to see? No one "sh1tting" on fighters we get to see, how is saying that Greb is top 5 based on resume "sh1ting" on modern fighters?. Do you believe that Ryan Bailey's a greater athlete than Jesse Owens? after all Bailey would obliterate him in a race and secondly if I called Jesse Owens the greatest athlete of all time would I be "sh1tting" on modern sprinters like Bolt, Bailey or Blake?

oh f*ck I wanted Chavez to knock him out so badly!!! props to Martinez fir sur viving and props to Chavez for not giving up even when the fight looked way out of reach

Cooper got at Ali when he was green, with a near perfect shot and a very good one really. All Henry really had was his hammer (and his jab) and that was the best he'd ever thrown. Let's not go into what happens to green fighters. Everyone knows you won't like that. http://sevensentences.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Wepner.jpg Wepner admits he took a trick from Sonny Liston and stood on Ali's foot when he hit him in the body. Ali took harder punches, from much harder punching fighters. Repeatedly and never fell. But suddenly light-punching Wepner is knocking him off his feet? Suspicious if you ask me. Especially considering he admits to having used a dirty trick It's incredible, they'll see this **** and STILL go around spreading it.

"But he was found guilty today and sentenced to a six month prison sentence suspended for two years" :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHnidDtgFaw still not buying it. Wasn't it explained to you in the other thread that because cameras were filmed at a different frame rate, fighters used to exaggerate their movements rolled for training footage? do you think Greb actually punched like this in fights?

Scrap 40 years old, the man Greb was sparring, Philiadelphia Jack'O brien died in 1942 at the age of 64, that footage was taken somewhere around late 20's early 30's so he must have been nearing 50 or have probably been slightly older. The man that Greb was sparring in that footage died over a dozen years later from old age, and this is the same footage people love to espouse to somehow discredit Greb :lol1:

My query is, why do people always bring up that sparring footage to mar Greb? Its been explained time and time again that It was between two friends The man greb was sparring was long retired and was at least over 40 years old Greb is obviously laughing in the footage. IT ISNT SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AS FOOTAGE OF GREBS ABILITIES. This footage is poor evidence against Grebs abilities as a fighter, considering that it's a joke sparring session between two friends one of which is A MIDDLE AGED MAN

Im sorry but i cannot respect nor find it credible any ATG list that has highly ranked fighters with no fight footage over fighters with extensive video evidence. It is intellectually and analytically dishonest and its done by the vanguards of old school golden age fighters to preserve their history. The most glaring example is this guy: How can you take this seriously? How can you take a guy with two sets of records; offiicial & newspaper record, seriously? Historians and older boxing fans love to talk about the "Golden Age" of boxing and how pure and so much better it was when in reality the golden age of boxing was the most crooked era in all of boxing. Referees as judge, jury, and executioner. Mob Controlled fights. Black fighters not given title opportunities and when given get royally screwed. How can a black fighter get a fair shake in the "Golden Era" when he cant even get a fair shake when it comes to his most basic civil rights? When we see list done by boxing "historians" its littered with past great white hopes. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3658/3380785460_7444f251f0.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Barney_Ross.jpg/200px-Barney_Ross.jpg http://www.fighttoys.com/Canzoneri%201-16-30%20%28b%29.JPG Its all done to preserve history. There's a reason why as civil rights started getting momentum, the number of great white fighters started declining. In fact, this happened in almost all sports especially basketball and baseball. Today is not as bad and back then wasnt all its cracked up to be. It isn't supposed to be taken seriously, it was a joke sparring session between two friends, one of which was an old man, you can even see Greb laughing in the footage.

I love the way people use an example of a knockdown that Louis got up immediately from and was barely hurt by, in a fight where he absolutely decimated the opponent in question.

You realise there are other weight divisions besides heavyweight? There are easily 30 guys better than Ali throughout history. LOL man you made a foolish post, we all do that from time to time just back down, you're not going to name me 30 greater fighters than Ali

owned! marcianos conditioning was amazing. i heard he ran every single day whether he was training for a fight or not. he even ran on christmas Yeah man the guy was a conditioning beast.

Yes, and what I am about to say will get all these history and old-timer fanboys so pissed. These fighters from Marciano and Joe Louis days would stand ZERO chance with the fighters of today. Even the **** heavyweight like Chisora, Arreola and other bums would have beaten these old guys. They barely trained compared to how people train these days, didn't know nearly as many strengthening techniques and everything else. In EVERY sport, the athletes are by far superior now to say 40-70 years ago. EVERY sport, yes that includes boxing. If Marciano were to fight Lennox Lewis or Ali or a Klitschko he would get destroyed so bad he would look like a bum bar fighter. Just look at those tapes LOL, so slow and brutal conditioning. These old guys are overrated as **** by nerd historians who dwell on the "good old days" when the fighters of today are wayyyy better. Starting from the time of Ali onwards is when athletics hit major strides in training developments. Hell, after the fights those old guys would drink for a few weeks and have no nutritionists and then go fight again they would be slaughtered like lambs to new generation fighters. How do you think Larry Bird stacks up to Lebron James in terms of ability on the court? LMAO Oh yeah Marciano had "brutal conditioning", thats why he was able to throw 100 punches in the 15th round against Ezzard Charles and average 80-100 punches per rounds over 15 rounds regularly

Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling I- So I can see Louis flirting with every girl in town and playing golf instead of training. And the second one because it was literally the biggest fight in the world.