manny beats any version of oscar. you betta believe that
No way, seriously let's be real here for a second.
Tito wasn't a very skilled boxer, not enough to deal with the speed and awkwardness of Manny. In order to beat Manny IMO, I think you need to be a very, very skilled boxer like a JMM.
Oscar was that but bigger and much stronger than JMM. Same reason I think Mayweather beats Manny as well.
Styles is what you need to look at. I just don't see Tito's style compatible to Manny's, I see Oscar having a much better chance.
I don't know if Cotto had more skills. People forget how skillfull Tito was before he fell in love with his power. That is why I said the Tito from 1992-1995 beats Pac. That Tito was not easy to beat at all.
No disrespect man but Tito was an avg boxer even at his peak. I mean he wasn't bad, he just didn't have the skill Oscar had, or any of the other good natural boxers of the time.
Remember, he got hit a lot. He was knocked down a lot and hurt a lot. When have you ever seen Oscar get hurt to the chin? Even in the Quartey fight, Oscar wasn't really hurt, he was stunned and knocked down but never in trouble.
Vargas hurt Tito, Campas stunned him. There were much lesser fighters that were able to touch Tito consistently, Manny would have no problem hitting him.
This was already done and trinidad won by land slide. just because Manny beat a shot Cotto they think he can beat any Welter weight, but as soon as many fights some more welterweights he will become shot himself and you'll see he can take one punch and continue on strong. Manny had it easy on his last three fights, while Cotto had two out of three hard battles. It was fighting those battles whay hurt Cotto, the Clottey fight and the Margarito fight that counts for two. But not even a Mayweather wil be as dangerous for manny as fighting a Margarito, Clottey or Mosley. Those are the hard hitting fighters that will make you a shot fight. Margarito cause of the plaster.
:bottle: Excuses don't describe this post.....
Now cotto was shot.....wow.
She looks a little funny to me. I don't know what it is but she has something off about her.
Damn, his face looks bad. I think that's the worst I have ever seen him after a fight.
he really thinks manny is on roids...he has his reasons.
how was JMM able to put pac down but cotto wasnt.
something is up
Because boxing is a skill and JMM has more of it than Manny or Cotto.
That's why, stop making excuses and crying like a bitch boy...
At when WW when did you see Tito hurt. Campas did not stun Tito he dropped a cold Tito. Tito was never ever hurt at 147. Every time he got knockdown it flash knockdowns. Tito use to ust the jab as a tremendous weapon, he use to move give angles, go to the body, kept a high guard. But, when Tito fell in love with his power. He stopped using his skills and just wanted to blow everybody away.
A cold Tito? Come on man, your making excuses now...
Look, I respect Tito, he was a very good champion and had incredible power. Like I said though, when did you ever see Oscar hurt like Tito?
It's tough to go through a career like Oscar had and not suffer a loss or get hurt. Oscar just wouldn't get touched, I mean, think about the last time you would see Oscar cut or hurt? It never happened.....
Tito just didn't have great boxing skills, he was a good boxer, just not great like you are making him sound to be. He was lucky to have the power he had because had he not had that power, he would have lost a lot of fights he won, including the one vs Vargas.
Right now he is better..not sure about his chin and work rate when he steps up and gets more experience...but he is fundamentaly better (sp)
I would agree he is fundamentally better but he's not a better fighter than Marg. Marg would KO him if they were to fight right now but I think Angulo can be better in time and is better after 16 fights than Marg was.
I think Marg's chin is better though.
"Cotton"....hahahahah
That's messed up. On a serious note, Cotto will not and should not fight GGG. Just vacate the title and move on to Canelo where you have a chance and will get paid more.
Canelo's accuracy was through the roof.
People don't realize how hard it is to land punches at that percentage. Think about the first shot that floored Kirkland. He landed a body shot, Kirkland moved to his left and Canelo adjusted the right hand to land dead in the middle of his face.
Canelo has more skills than these haters give him credit for.
Have to disagree with Ann on this one. The reason Kirkland lost wasn't because he wasn't put through hell, it was because he faced a much better fighter. Even when he was KO'd by Ishida, people don't realize that Ishida walks around as high as 200 lbs. He may not be a huge puncher, but he's skilled and caught Kirkland early and he never recovered.
There's nothing Wolfe would have done to give a different outcome. So maybe Kirkland would have been in better shape, but 1 week out he was almost at weight which tells me he was working really hard.
Canelo is just on another level and it showed. BTW, it wasn't the uppercut that beat Kirkland, it was the left hook. That's what landed first and seriously hurt Kirkland to the point where he couldn't recover.
I also don't approve of the methods by Wolfe. One thing is pushing your fighters and being tough, another is beating them with jump ropes. That's just stupid and makes no sense. There have been many great and tough fighters and they weren't beat with ropes and medicine balls to win.
Just nonsense and over doing it. Maybe if she focused more on the science of the sport and technique, Kirkland would have evolved. Instead he's the same fighter he's always been because she want's a bar fight and boxing isn't about who is just tougher. It's about toughness, skill, endurance ALL of that.
He is a good fighter, this thread is not about his resume or if he is a solid fighter. It is if he needs a new trainer, that is about improvement and reaching his potential. He could be more than he is, I shouldn't even need to saying a thing more that is obvious stuff, but you seem to not get that concept.
He is pretty much the same guy, he didn't learn anything from Trout to Floyd to Lara. Each of those was pretty much the same story. He hasn't figured out that he gases so he needs to put in that extra work to solve that issue. If his trainers can't get his stamina issues straight, then why should I expect them to handle anything relevant with him or for Canelo to really give a **** what they have to say?
I do see a diamond when I see Canelo, if I didn't I wouldn't give two thoughts to him because he wouldn't have it. Since he does have it, the question is how does he maximize it.
The money and success is part of why he needs a new trainer, that stuff normally kills fighters, so why do you think Canelo is different than most fighters. He seems pretty average in that regard.
As for inside track, I follow my eyes in boxing and I have come out ahead for a long time, believe me or don't believe me I don't care but that changes nothing about how I look at Canelo. I won't be the one disappointed in him though~
Well then you need glasses. You are sitting there with a straight face saying he's the same fighter as he was a few years back? Absurd...
First off, this claim that he gasses is so over blown. Let me ask you this, have you ever boxed? Have you even sparred? Because anyone who has knows that when a guy jumps on you the way Kirkland did, couple that with the nervous energy EVERY fighter gets, he did fatigue a little.
Then he recovered, and landed some huge shots and won. Again Trout he was moving backwards the whole fight, that takes a lot of stamina. Again Lara he was moving forward the whole fight, that also takes a ton of stamina.
I don't think his stamina issue is as big of a deal as some say. As far as your boxing I.Q, no disrespect, but you don't know as much as you think you do. We don't know what is going on with Canelo in private and I can tell you from what I read, is that the kid is dedicated.
Unlike reports of Chavez Jr. That I can agree on. I think people need to calm down and understand he's all of 24 years of age. You say he's underachieving, I say he's over achieved when you look at his career.
You are basing what you say on wishful thinking.
I see what I have seen in countless dudes that didn't reach their potential, I see the same in Canelo.
It doesn't matter what they show or don't show, pay attention and you will see all you need.
Do you think he gasses out because he is such a hard worker, for example? His moves in the ring are all derivatives of the same thing, you see improvement I just see more of the same.
He is not going to reach his potential where he is plain and simple, he will lose within two years and will switch trainers anyway. Why not get on with it now?
I am not saying Canelo sucks, I am saying he will never be what he could where he is now.
Well, I'm not saying he won't lose..lol
If you want to say though that he's the same fighter now as he was 2 years ago, then you need to watch more boxing. Canelo has improved a lot, both on defense and offense.
Again, what do you see? You keep talking like you have some inside track and it's the same thing we are all seeing. Just a snippet of his media workouts and not what is really going on in the gym.
Also, he hasn't reached his potential? WTF?!?!? He's 24 years old, made tens of millions of dollars in boxing, already was a champion, and is arguably the biggest name in the sport.
That's a pretty good resume if you ask me at 24.
I just think Canelo needs a new trainer because he needs someone to really push him.
What I see from Canelo in camp is all about comfort and if you are in your comfort zone you aren't pushing yourself, if you aren't pushing yourself you are stagnating, if you are stagnating you are getting worse because there is no staying the same.
I just see Canelo as too much the boss in his camp.
You know this how? So you are telling everyone that because you saw some tiny snippet of what Canelo is doing in his media workouts, that he's not being pushed?
Man, I'm telling you the embarrassingly obvious stupidity in this place never ceases to amaze me. You do realize that you aren't there at 5 am when he's running 8 miles per day. When he's working in the gym 6 days a week, both strength and conditioning, boxing workouts and sparring...
Fans see some 24/7 show about a fighter, and they think they have an insight to what happens in a real boxing gym, 6 days a week. Canelo works hard, you don't win 41 fights against the best jr welters in the world and not train hard.
He has also clearly improved from when he was just 22. His defense is better, his movement is much better and we know the kid can crack.
It's feast or famine in this place. 99% of boxing fans = you are 1 a bum or 2 the best ever. There is absolutely nothing in between.
based on what?
losing to floyd mayweather in his early 20's...?
Exactly, Chepo and co have done a fantastic job with this kid. He throws in combinations, he takes angles and can fight going backwards, forwards and counter punch.
He loses to the best pound for pound fighter in the world and he now needs new trainers...lol
Like Canelo said after the fight when asked about will this shut up his critics, he said of course not, they will always be complaining no matter what I do. He's all of 24 and has fought the best the division has had to offer and people still say his resume is weak, amazing.
People just aren't very smart on this site.
His lack of evolution is'nt all Ann's fault. Kirkland lost the better part of 5 years due to prison stints. I mean really the guy lost 6+ years due to stupid **** in general and he is only 31. Better than half of his pro career has been lost.
This is true and a good point. I just think for her to say that if she was there it would have been different, I disagree.
Kirkland IMO is a tough sob, that can punch like a mule but that's about it. He was tailor made for Canelo, but is still an incredibly dangerous opponent and I have to give Canelo props for not only taking the fight, but standing toe to toe with him and knocking him out.
Because I pay close attention and have watched the same thing play out before.
I can say the same thing to you, why is your white washed version any different from mine. What I am seeing is more inline with general boxing realities, where guys sleeping on silk sheets if they are the boss aren't long for this game.
I am telling you what I see. I could not care less if you agree or disagree, if what I said brought these feelings out of you then you are more emotionally invested in Canelo than I. Listening to someone a bit more removed is usually a good idea.
I am going to hit a lick on Canelo one day, I am just waiting for the right moment. Probably not against Cotto though, I will probably have money on Canelo in that one.
Emotion? What in the world are you talking about? I'm basing what I said on facts, you are basing on what you "see".
What do you see? You are not there, how in the world can you determine what Canelo or any other fighter does by watching some media workout? Do you even know how boxing works? Do you understand they don't show much on purpose on these shows for very important reasons?
Look, I'm not saying Canelo is the pound for pound best in the game. I'm just saying this talk of him not working hard or him needing another trainer isn't based on any facts. It's based on boxing fans running their mouths and not understanding the way it works.
I agree with the guys you mentioned in the 2nd paragraph. As for Mares & LSC, they started out catching everyones eye but are now with Haymon and have been fighting chumps for the most part while losing respect from hardcore fans
So because Al Haymon is trying to monopolize boxing, and hasn't given Cruz the fight we all want to see, he's now a coward...lol
Mares, who's resume as about as good as it gets in boxing, and got knocked out by one of the hardest punchers in boxing, is now finished as well...lol
Fans of boxing are hilarious. Mexico has great fighters now, has had them for decades and will continue to have them in the future. Boxing without Mexicans is like marathons without Kenyans.
You should most definitely watch more boxing if you are going to comment on boxing.
Do you know who Juan Francisco Estrada is? How about Carlos Cuadras, Moises Flores, Oscar Valdez, Miguel Berchelt, Andy Ruiz, Carlos Diaz, Andres Gutierrez, Antonio Orozco, Ivan Morales...
I haven't even brought up already established guys like Mares and Santa Cruz. I think Mexican boxing is doing ok...lol
This is something most posters here living in 1st world countries will never understand unless they experience it themselves.
Yup, Americans have it so good they don't even know. I have traveled and I can tell you that while there are many flaws in the U.S, we have it really good here.
food stamps isnt enough to feed a family, this has been proven. the free school you speak of is over priced, thats how **** it is. the jobs available are trash, not much better than selling donuts on the streets and section 8 isnt much help.
im not saying floyd had it as tough as manny, but dont sit around acting as if he had an easy time coming up. floyd grew up in a house without warm water, with the lights turned off on a regular basis. idk what their food situation was but im guessing it wasnt great either.
again, not as rough as manny. but hard as hell regardless. it should also be mentioned floyd never did sell drugs or rob anyone, so i dont know why you even bring that up.
I think you missed the point. The reality is, Americans don't understand what it is to really be poor, to really live in a situation where you don't know where your next meal will come from.
3rd world poor is much different than being poor in America. Floyd complains and talks about how rough he's had it, but in reality he's never had it rough. He's just grown up with ignorant parents and a lack of education. Floyd grew up with his uncle and father giving the wrong example and it reflects on the person Floyd is.
Well there are many techniques one can use to avoid being held. One is positioning your head under the chin of your opponent and pushing. Another is leveraging the arms by getting underneath them.
In the end though, when you are facing a bigger or really skilled opponent like Klitchko and Mayweather, the ref needs to not allow it. Mayweather is a great fighter, but if you allow him to hold, you take basically the only other avenue away from the opposing fighter that can beat him.
The ref turned Hatton into a one dimensional fighter, and did the same Guerrero. Allowing Mayweather to hold is making it even more difficult to beat an already difficult opponent.
Would this mean Canelo was never that good to begin with? Or would it mean Kirklands better than we thought??
Do you think Canelo has to KO Kirkland to look impressive???
If Kirkland goes 12, will it mean more than a moral victory????
Talk about a loaded question. So basically you are saying Canelo needs an impressive KO, or he isn't that good.
lol
Dont wish this feeling for anyone. Im a seafarer and my ship is set to sail later this morning. Only God knows where I'd be come fight night, probably in the middle of the pacific, which is truly heartbreaking.
At some point a part of me wishes this fight is not happening, which I know is a shame, but I just never thought having two of your favorite fighters fighting each other would be this unbearable. A part of me dont want pacquiao to win because I dont want those people who never appreciated him to be right, those who call him boring or potshotter or runner, because I know he is amazingly brilliant. But on the other side, I'm also a Filipino who considers pacquiao a hero, and no fighter ever again will be considered as a people champ, more than he is.
Bye guys and may the best man win!
Forgive me if this is just another useless thread for the upcoming fight.
Here, I will tell you what will happen.
Rounds 1-4, Pac lands a big shot, crowd goes crazy!
Rounds 5-12, Mayweather adjusts, dominates the rest of the fight and cruises to a UD.
You're welcome.