Prime JAMES TONEY Vs Usyk @ 200lbs

[Long jabber]

Erm, Toney was in his prime at 160 and 168 dummy.

Toney does not hold a HW title.

Jirov is garbage and the fact you keep using RYDELL BOOKER as some kind of gauge is as funny as it is sad.

Toney can't handle movement, he's shown that. Toney struggled and lost to C level fighters from start to finish.

Could he beat Usyk? Very unlikely but one thing he definitely would never do is "destroy" "dominate" or "clown" Usyk because he never did any of those things against a top tier fighter at any point in his career.

So were talking about a 160 - 168 toney going up against a 200lbs usyk? If that's the case of course usyk wins. If not he gets countered all night just like everyone else did at cw and hw when they fought against toney. Usyk isn't an elite mover.

[billeau2]

Well you said Bellew hit Usyk a lot and used that as some kind of argument.

Yet Toney was hit a lot more by inferior fighters to Bellew (other than Johnson)

Yeah Bellew did a decent job. And? Dave Tiberi beat Toney easily so what's your point?

To see what drink has more sugar I guess in your book we should do a molecular analysis? Isn't that the same logic as saying "well lets look at the fine details of how each man struggled against a so called inferior opponent...lets count the punches landed, etc. That is silly.

The point is Usyk who really fought a lot less than Toney, already had a few problems with a guy that is beneath him... So the argument that Toney being inconsistant with opponents beneath him, maked him inferior to Usyk, is not cricket.

Furthermore, lets see if Usyk does not flounder a bit more, Toney fought a lot longer, considering those inconsistancies... and adding in the victories.

[billeau2]

Looking at some clips of Toney-Jirov and Usyk-Bellow,


Usyk is too mobile, too fleet footed and has too big a reach advantage for Toney to overcome at cruiser. Jirov's style is complete opposite of Usyk, likes to crowd and try to pressure, plays right into Toney's mid to inside range countering.

Toney would have a better chance with Usky at heavyweight strange as it sounds, last fight Usky looked more sluggish with the higher weight. Still think Toney loses no matter what though.


Usky basically has both the natural size advantage and the style matchup in his favor.

That is a very interesting observation. I like it. Toney was very good at fighting at any weight, he had the capacity to deal with heavyweights even if it was not his best division and it might indeed be the best division for him in this match up.

[IronDanHamza]

So were talking about a 160 - 168 toney going up against a 200lbs usyk? If that's the case of course usyk wins. If not he gets countered all night just like everyone else did at cw and hw when they fought against toney. Usyk isn't an elite mover.

No I'm not. I'm pointing out that he struggled and lost to numerous C level fighters in his prime (and throughout his whole career)

Toney is worse above 168.

"Everyone else" He didn't do shit at Heavyweight. You're so far from reality it's insane.

[IronDanHamza]

To see what drink has more sugar I guess in your book we should do a molecular analysis? Isn't that the same logic as saying "well lets look at the fine details of how each man struggled against a so called inferior opponent...lets count the punches landed, etc. That is silly.

The point is Usyk who really fought a lot less than Toney, already had a few problems with a guy that is beneath him... So the argument that Toney being inconsistant with opponents beneath him, maked him inferior to Usyk, is not cricket.

Furthermore, lets see if Usyk does not flounder a bit more, Toney fought a lot longer, considering those inconsistancies... and adding in the victories.

Ok and the point is Toney got hit more than Usyk did against Bellew against inferior fighters than Bellew.

I.e It's a sht, illogical argument.

Tiberi hit Toney more in one fight than Usyk has probably ever been hit. Tiberi who is a journeyman had no problem what so ever hitting Toney and beat him clearly and easily.

[Long jabber]

No I'm not. I'm pointing out that he struggled and lost to numerous C level fighters in his prime (and throughout his whole career)

Toney is worse above 168.

"Everyone else" He didn't do shit at Heavyweight. You're so far from reality it's insane.

I saw your other thread on toney in the history forum. You obviously have an agenda against toney. You moved goal post in your conversations over and over and i don't really want to argue with someone who uses weak debate tactics like that on top of logical fallacies like straw manning. I and many others including long time fans, announcers, atg boxers, great traainers are of the opinion that james toney is not overrated and was infact an underrated atg fighter with superb skills in the same class as an ezzard charles, archie moore gerorge benton mayweather jr.. Guess the boxing community has spoken on this and how you feel and your opinions in regards to james toney overall credibility as an atg fighter with atg skills don't really matter or effect that.

[IronDanHamza]

I saw your other thread on toney in the history forum. You obviously have an agenda against toney. You moved goal post in your conversations over and over and i don't really want to argue with someone who uses weak debate tactics like that on top of logical fallacies like straw manning. I and many others including long time fans, announcers, atg boxers, great traainers are of the opinion that james toney is not overrated and was infact an underrated atg fighter with superb skills in the same class as an ezzard charles, archie moore gerorge benton mayweather jr.. Guess the boxing community has spoken on this and how you feel and your opinions in regards to james toney overall credibility as an atg fighter with atg skills don't really matter or effect that.

No I haven't moved the goal post My stance is consistent, solid and FACT based.

Your stance is based off pure delusion and fantasy.

I have no agenda, hell, I find Toney's style nice on the eyes. I just also recognise that he's not that good. Certainly not great.

[Nay_Sayer]

"Everyone else" He didn't do shit at Heavyweight. You're so far from reality it's insane.

Toney has better wins @ HW than Usyk does.

Care to explain how?

[IronDanHamza]

Toney has better wins @ HW than Usyk does.

Care to explain how?

Because Usyk has one fight there and Toney had several.

What's your point?

[daggum]

i got usyk. jirov was a really good win without a win but stylistically that favored toney because jirov gave up his height and kept running into counters. i dont see usyk doing that and i think it would be very boring. besides that toney really didnt do much at cruiser so there isnt that much to go on.