Vitali's mythical poor resume pt 2

[KBRO]

The WBO belt at heavyweight? Their champions had varying levels of credibility in different divisions over the years but were laughable as serious claimants until the mid-2000s in the top class; look how many guys just chucked that belt in the trash. Mercer, Bowe, Moorer, Akinwande, and even Sanders all chucked it to get shots at better regarded titles. Most people forget Bowe ever held it. I've seen Bowe say "two-time champ" and see people just sort of roll their eyes. It had no real value at the top of the class and was LIGHTLY regarded in 1999 and he won it from a guy almost no one saw as a top ten heavy at the time. While he didn't get his first belt out of a garbage can the way Lewis did, Lewis at least knocked out a Ruddock in everyone's top four at the time to set that up. And at the time Vit beat Hide, Lewis was the CLEAR legitmate champion.

Context matters here. Off the win over Hide, Klitschko broke into Ring's top ten for the first time and he didn't hold the belt long enough to give it any value.

Totally agree on Wilder. he's faced nada. Has an interesting package of potential (if he can take a shot and go rounds, two verdicts still WAY out from being proven). That's it. He's a 30 fight prospect.

Vit's 3 is hardly what Ali did (still the only three-time lineal champ even if the third came because he was so faded he could actually lose to Spinks) or Holyfield (two and Tyson, non lineal). He's won two belts without ever proving to be THE champion. That's closer to Tim Witherspoon (won two belts while there was a legit lineal champ reigning) but with a long reign in his second WBC string that Spoon never put together.

He's not unaccomplished. But with challengers like Charr, Solis, a shell of Briggs (who was never that great in his prime), Sosnowski, Arreola (STILL has never beaten a real top ten guy) and Johnson, we're not talking about an epic reign either. His "entire opposition has been left thoroughly inept." But too many of them have been thoroughly inept.

Ok.. i'll give you the WBO belt being inept... since so many had thrown it in the garbage.... & didn't value it... then why did Vitali get so much slack for basically not appreciating it either by handing Byrd an undeserved W?

Ali might have lineage but what Klitschko did... 4 yrs out ...no tuneup.. straight back to get his belt back is impressive in it's own right & it NEVER comes up when speaking on behalf of his resume... Vitali Klitschko clearly has proven that he's the champion for the past 10 yrs along with his brother regardless of what fragmented belts have been dispersed through the years.. his brother has just fought more than him due to being healthy & not having political ambitions.

Good line about them being inept (chuckle) to begin with but.. look at what Klitschko has done to these opposition & how they fared against everyone else & you'll have your answer... not Vitali's fault he can't fight Ali or Louis.. to diminish a fighter for NOT fighting a mythical fantasy matchup is absolutely absurd but this is what knowledgeable fans do here.. think of it Klitschko actually gets blamed for not fighting them.. same way he can't fight his brother is the same way he can't fight them... do those alltime great fighters get points off there resumes for not fighting Klitschko?

[crold1]

Ok.. i'll give you the WBO belt being inept... since so many had thrown it in the garbage.... & didn't value it... then why did Vitali get so much slack for basically not appreciating it either by handing Byrd an undeserved W?

Ali might have lineage but what Klitschko did... 4 yrs out ...no tuneup.. straight back to get his belt back is impressive in it's own right & it NEVER comes up when speaking on behalf of his resume... Vitali Klitschko clearly has proven that he's the champion for the past 10 yrs along with his brother regardless of what fragmented belts have been dispersed through the years.. his brother has just fought more than him due to being healthy & not having political ambitions.

Good line about them being inept (chuckle) to begin with but.. look at what Klitschko has done to these opposition & how they fared against everyone else & you'll have your answer... not Vitali's fault he can't fight Ali or Louis.. to diminish a fighter for NOT fighting a mythical fantasy matchup is absolutely absurd but this is what knowledgeable fans do here.. think of it Klitschko actually gets blamed for not fighting them.. same way he can't fight his brother is the same way he can't fight them... do those alltime great fighters get points off there resumes for not fighting Klitschko?

Hey, I left out the guys I think were decent challengers. Chisora beat a real contender and got gypped (Helenius); Adamek is good fighter; Peter and Gomez are solid wins. I give him a lot of credit for coming four years off the bench and doing that. Those other guys really never did anything of note before or after Vitali. There's just a too much pabulum for my taste. Not losing rounds to Charr is like giving Bernard Hopkins credit for Morrad Hakkar.

On Byrd, it wasn't about the belt. It was about quitting in a fight he was winning (if not that impressively; Byrd made him look bad, something he couldn't do to Wlad) and it looked worse than it was because it came after Byrd started to mount a rally. It wasn't fair, but quitting is often treated harshly in boxing (fair or unfair) and it's worse for guys who aren't proven yet.

No one sane can fault him for not fighting Louis etc. That's nuts. Can't fight ghosts. But in the absence of great fighters, you can try to clean out. Wlad has done MUCH more of that. Would Vitali have done it had he not got hurt? Maybe. Probably. But he didn't and it's not fair to lend him Wlad's comp. Wlad has been a take all comers champ. he was much more a take all comers contender on the way up. He stumbled more, but he came out of it and improved.

I think highly of both. I think Wlad is far more accomplished and ultimately developed into the better of the two.

[KBRO]

Hey, I left out the guys I think were decent challengers. Chisora beat a real contender and got gypped (Helenius); Adamek is good fighter; Peter and Gomez are solid wins. I give him a lot of credit for coming four years off the bench and doing that. Those other guys really never did anything of note before or after Vitali. There's just a too much pabulum for my taste. Not losing rounds to Charr is like giving Bernard Hopkins credit for Morrad Hakkar.

On Byrd, it wasn't about the belt. It was about quitting in a fight he was winning (if not that impressively; Byrd made him look bad, something he couldn't do to Wlad) and it looked worse than it was because it came after Byrd started to mount a rally. It wasn't fair, but quitting is often treated harshly in boxing (fair or unfair) and it's worse for guys who aren't proven yet.

No one sane can fault him for not fighting Louis etc. That's nuts. Can't fight ghosts. But in the absence of great fighters, you can try to clean out. Wlad has done MUCH more of that. Would Vitali have done it had he not got hurt? Maybe. Probably. But he didn't and it's not fair to lend him Wlad's comp. Wlad has been a take all comers champ. he was much more a take all comers contender on the way up. He stumbled more, but he came out of it and improved.

I think highly of both. I think Wlad is far more accomplished and ultimately developed into the better of the two.

I did a cumalitive opposition record disposition of Lennox Lewis' entire opposition vs Vitali's opposition & the records turned out to be practically identical.. in other words.. there avg opponents record when facing them were both in the 80-85% range... now I realize Lewis faced more recognizeable names & a Holyfield & Tyson but honestly how can we say one generation's fighters are better than the others when we're mostly talking journeyman & pretenders for the majority of there opposition... more a matter of opinion than actual fact once we break down the average opponent.

Vitali quit & we all know by now because of a shoulder injury sustained during the bout.. he might've not wanted to get embarrassed by a light hitting heavy & was nervous that the shoulder could affect future bouts.. bottom line he didn't think it was worth the risk to continue despite winning the bout comfortably.

Wlad did deal with Byrd easier mainly because he's a little more patient than Vitali is who just wanted to get him out of there like his previous 27 opponents & quickly found out Byrd was not easy to hit clean unless you bait him out of his defensive comfort zone.. Vitali later learned with Kevin Johnson that sometimes you just have to pace & soften your attack with fighters who strictly specialize in defense.

Wlad's opposition is probably vastly different than Vitali's.. first of all due to Vitali's inactivity.. secondly I think they decide on which opponents each should take based on there styles when mandatories aren't involved.... what happened with David Haye is probably what happens with most of there uncommon opposition... so if Wlad's competition seems slightly better.. it's because he's a little more active & he attained two more belts.. could've very easily been two apiece but they settled on Wlad vs Haye instead.

[LacedUp]

He's definitely an atg hes just in a horrible era. I don't think he beats the likes of Louis Ali Frazier or Tyson. He's a a live dog against against Marciano, Patterson and Holmes. That's my opinion I'm not much for arguing its merit but the klitschkos do get a lot of unnecessary hate.

Patterson

[A_Jeffrey]

Both Klitschkos would lay Patterson stone out. Quick. Marciano might hang around a little while (he might be hard to find with his bend over defense) but that's too much size to overcome. Of all the heavyweight champions pre-Liston, Louis is the only one I'd pick over both in any era. Dempsey might have a shot in his time given glove size and knockdown 'hovering' allowances.

We saw Louis against some guys close to the size of the K's, a couple who could fight. Marciano never really beat a good BIG man or even saw one.

yep, all the 170 pound HW from black and white era would get eaten alive by LL and Klitschkos.

[JAB5239]

Holy Jesus, Vittles fans got taken to school!

[BattlingNelson]

Hey, I left out the guys I think were decent challengers. Chisora beat a real contender and got gypped (Helenius); Adamek is good fighter; Peter and Gomez are solid wins. I give him a lot of credit for coming four years off the bench and doing that. Those other guys really never did anything of note before or after Vitali. There's just a too much pabulum for my taste. Not losing rounds to Charr is like giving Bernard Hopkins credit for Morrad Hakkar.

On Byrd, it wasn't about the belt. It was about quitting in a fight he was winning (if not that impressively; Byrd made him look bad, something he couldn't do to Wlad) and it looked worse than it was because it came after Byrd started to mount a rally. It wasn't fair, but quitting is often treated harshly in boxing (fair or unfair) and it's worse for guys who aren't proven yet.

No one sane can fault him for not fighting Louis etc. That's nuts. Can't fight ghosts. But in the absence of great fighters, you can try to clean out. Wlad has done MUCH more of that. Would Vitali have done it had he not got hurt? Maybe. Probably. But he didn't and it's not fair to lend him Wlad's comp. Wlad has been a take all comers champ. he was much more a take all comers contender on the way up. He stumbled more, but he came out of it and improved.

I think highly of both. I think Wlad is far more accomplished and ultimately developed into the better of the two.

Some outstanding posts in this thread Cliff.

[bklynboy]

yep, all the 170 pound HW from black and white era would get eaten alive by LL and Klitschkos.

You think that Dempsey and Johnson wouldn't have a chance against them?

Based on what? Size? Skill? I think LL and the Klitschkos are heavily favored against all but

Johnson,
Wills,
Dempsey,
Louis,
Liston

I would love to see them against Jess Willard and Luis Firpo. Those guys were big, could ****, and we'll find out if they ****** or not.

Baer, Schmelling, and Cleveland Williams would also be tough, interesting match-ups.

Special mention has to go to Gene Tunney. If he had to put on some weight he would have. He trimmed down to be fast enough to stay away from Dempsey.

[crold1]

You think that Dempsey and Johnson wouldn't have a chance against them?

Based on what? Size? Skill? I think LL and the Klitschkos are heavily favored against all but

Johnson,
Wills,
Dempsey,
Louis,
Liston

I would love to see them against Jess Willard and Luis Firpo. Those guys were big, could ****, and we'll find out if they ****** or not.

Baer, Schmelling, and Cleveland Williams would also be tough, interesting match-ups.

Special mention has to go to Gene Tunney. If he had to put on some weight he would have. He trimmed down to be fast enough to stay away from Dempsey.

Tunney didn't trim anything for Dempsey. He was the highest of his career.

[bklynboy]

Tunney didn't trim anything for Dempsey. He was the highest of his career.

I remember reading that he was concentrating on his speed and footwork for Dempsey and had done more roadwork for that fight than any other.

I just went to boxrec and yes, Tunney's at his heaviest with Dempsey and his last fight with Henney.

Let me rephrase it. If Tunney felt that he needed another 10-15 pounds of muscle to take on LL I think he could have put it on. Whether that would be enough is another question. I would give the advantage to LL and both Ks.

Tunney gives up 4-8 inches in reach which I think is more significant than the 40 pounds of so (240-200) that he would give up. If LL came in at 250+ his jab better be landing on Tunney or come round 8 he'll be in a world of hurt.