Why Floyd is a better counter puncher than Marquez

[Mr.0pal]

Different styles of counter punching. JMM can multitask better than floyd. Floyd is best at waiting to counter, but if you study his career, watch his early bouts when he use to sit down and go to war with opponents (people think he was always a pot shotter) you'd realize he got hit a LOT during exchanges.

Provide examples. Did any of them look like this?


or this?

JMM is a better counter puncher when engaging than floyd is. Floyds biggest gift in this discussion is his defense, THAT is hitting and not being hit. COUNTERING is making your opponent pay for missing, or putting punches out there.

And against certain styles JMM hits nothing but air. If you're fighting a counter puncher that you can hit after being countered then you're much better off than fighting a counter puncher who is gone after he counters you. That makes the later a better counter puncher because he's not presenting you with an opportunity to inflict damage after counters.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Im notr sure why that is a bad comparison.......are you then saying that John Ruiz is physical gifted because he he was 6'3" and 200 and whatever pounds....are you saying Gary Russell Jr isnt physicallly gifted because he is 5'4" and 126 pounds.....and not sure what you are saying here....

Don't you get it KPB? If you're small then you don't have ability.

Its simple. There are many athletic guys who could never make it in boxing. There are also athletic boxers that will never get their timing down enough to hold a torch to JMM no matter how many hours they put in in the gym working on it. Also Floyd is a gym rat. He works on it constantly. A fighter that I would peg as an over achiever is Froch. Then maybe I could agree with your point of view.

What?!?!?!?! Hahahah

Good god wtf are you people talking about? When did I say being little makes you not have physical talents? Holy **** you guys are reaching to make a point I never made.

Some of the smallest fighter were born with natural gifts. I'm comparing JMM to Floyd, not making sweeping statements that because you are small you aren't naturally gifted. Jesus Christ............

You can be a straw weight and be a devastating puncher for that weight class, power you are born with. Speed, etc.....

I'm saying BOTH JMM and Mayweather are great fighters but Floyd is the more naturally gifted so that's why I find JMM to be more impressive. That's all, nothing more nothing less, I never said Floyd doesn't work hard or that he isn't smart in the ring, none of that.

You know just because one person is better than the other at something doesn't mean that other person sucks. You guys need to learn to debate and argue without being so extreme is your thinking.

And that makes JMM more intelligent than Floyd, right?

Doing what the crowd wants rather than sticking to a good gameplan = intelligent boxing. Gotcha.

Well I wouldn't say intelligent, just crowd pleasing. Erik Morales showed you can be both when he chose to out box Manny for 11 rounds then turned south paw and brawled with him for the last round.

When Merchant asked him why, he just answered "You enjoyed it right? Merchant said yes and he said "Thats why".

JMM likes to put on a show with his brawling style that he can switch to.

[COACH WEBB]

ok then.......and how does this show he his size wasn't a factor?

Because he boxed the guys his size or bigger, the same way he boxed the smaller Marquez. I've watched all those fights many times and he didn't do anything differently in those than he did in his fight with Marquez. He led when he wanted to, moved, and countered when he saw openings. He fought going backwards, on the ropes and sometimes in the middle of the ring. He slipped punches, pull-counter and all that. He never really pressed Marquez or fought him in the pocket or tried to bully him around. It looked like a typical Mayweather fight to me. Him landing when he wants and him making his opponent miss.

i never said marquez didn't win because of the size, my point was he couldn't counter floyd alot of times because of floyds size
but even if they were the same size floyd would more than likely play the mouse and cat game and force marquez to be the aggressor

Explain further, if you would. He couldn't counter Floyd because Floyd was out of the way by the time Marquez was trying to counter. And, he did catch Floyd a few times with counters in that fight. Just not as much as he is used to landed because as he said, Floyd is defensive and very hard to hit. No fighter in today's game is just going to be able to counter Floyd consistently over 12 rounds, I don't care how good of a counterpuncher they are. His defense is too good for that.

[deejd]

What?!?!?!?! Hahahah

Good god wtf are you people talking about? When did I say being little makes you not have physical talents? Holy **** you guys are reaching to make a point I never made.

Oh yeah, that's right! Flutie is 6'6 240! Wait.... check that, he's still smaller than Peyton Manning.

[-KPB-]

What?!?!?!?! Hahahah

Good god wtf are you people talking about? When did I say being little makes you not have physical talents? Holy **** you guys are reaching to make a point I never made.

Some of the smallest fighter were born with natural gifts. I'm comparing JMM to Floyd, not making sweeping statements that because you are small you aren't naturally gifted. Jesus Christ............

You can be a straw weight and be a devastating puncher for that weight class, power you are born with. Speed, etc.....

I'm saying BOTH JMM and Mayweather are great fighters but Floyd is the more naturally gifted so that's why I find JMM to be more impressive. That's all, nothing more nothing less, I never said Floyd doesn't work hard or that he isn't smart in the ring, none of that.

You know just because one person is better than the other at something doesn't mean that other person sucks. You guys need to learn to debate and argue without being so extreme is your thinking.



Well I wouldn't say intelligent, just crowd pleasing. Erik Morales showed you can be both when he chose to out box Manny for 11 rounds then turned south paw and brawled with him for the last round.

When Merchant asked him why, he just answered "You enjoyed it right? Merchant said yes and he said "Thats why".

JMM likes to put on a show with his brawling style that he can switch to.

Yes, but then you also claimed JMM is one of the most intelligent fighters of all time....so my point is that why are you so impressed with JMM counterpunching abiliites than Floyd's because Floyd has natural gifts.....but then you claim is the most smartest fighters out there.........you act like JMM is as slow as Margarito, which he clearly isnt..........he has enough physical tools to compute what his extreme intelligence is telling him to do.....so why be so much more impressed with JMM than Floyd.....

I would argue that intelligence as well as physicasl gifts help a fighter just as much

[deejd]

I'm saying BOTH JMM and Mayweather are great fighters but Floyd is the more naturally gifted so that's why I find JMM to be more impressive. That's all, nothing more nothing less, I never said Floyd doesn't work hard or that he isn't smart in the ring, none of that.

So now we're at naturally gifted as opposed to natural ability... Was Chavez more naturally gifted than Taylor?

[Convicted_Felon]

There's no question about it. Floyd Mayweather is the best fighter of our generation. Possibly the best of all. Muhammad Ali is the greatest of all times. He boxed great and Floyd took Ali's level of greatness and took it to another level. To compare the counter punching abilities of Marquez to Floyd is not even fair. Marquez is an all time great Mexican warrior with an uncanny set of skills but to compare the 2 is almost like blasphemy.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Oh yeah, that's right! Flutie is 6'6 240! Wait.... check that, he's still smaller than Peyton Manning.

There's a difference between football and boxing and I didn't know I had to take your hand and walk you through something so clear. If you are a 5'11" QB, that's a disadvantage because it's not the pre-requisite for that position. Just like being an offensive lineman and weighing under 300lbs wouldn't be smart.

In boxing there are weight classes and certian weight classes have different advantages. Being a 6 ft heavyweight is nothing special but if you are a 6 ft welter weight, that's an advantage. That doesn't mean you can't be a straw weight and be naturally gifted.

Do you understand the difference?

Yes, but then you also claimed JMM is one of the most intelligent fighters of all time....so my point is that why are you so impressed with JMM counterpunching abiliites than Floyd's because Floyd has natural gifts.....but then you claim is the most smartest fighters out there.........you act like JMM is as slow as Margarito, which he clearly isnt..........he has enough physical tools to compute what his extreme intelligence is telling him to do.....so why be so much more impressed with JMM than Floyd.....

I would argue that intelligence as well as physicasl gifts help a fighter just as much

I don't dispute that in the least and like I said, my praise of one isn't an insult to the other. I'm comparing Floyd to JMM and when you compare those two's physical tools, JMM falls very short. It doesn't mean JMM is as slow as Margarito but he definitely has had to work with much less. Like I said, for him to be at this level at 39 yrs of age is ridiculously impressive. That's not taking anything from Floyd in the least.

So now we're at naturally gifted as opposed to natural ability... Was Chavez more naturally gifted than Taylor?

In the case of Chavez he had different physical abilities that could be comparable. Taylor was definitely faster but Chavez was a much harder puncher and his chin was one of the greatest in the history of boxing.

So there's a basis for comparison there. JMM doesn't have a great chin, he doesn't have a bad one but we have seen him hurt and down many times. Chavez was down once against Frankie Randall and everyone was shocked to see him fall, that's how good his chin was.

There are different physical gifts one could have and my argument is that JMM really wasn't blessed with any of them. It doesn't mean he's an invalid...lol

Just that he can't rely on other things the way gifted fighters can.

[turbotime]

You are making the typical mistake of the boxing fan that is confusing natural talent with boxing ability.

The biggest difference between JMM and Mayweather is that Mayweather is a superior athlete. I would say that JMM is a more impressive boxer/counter puncher because he's made a career in skill and skill alone.

I'm not saying JMM doesn't have natural ability but when you compare him to others of his time, he doesn't have anything as far as natural ability that stands out.

He's not particularly fast, quick, strong or has a powerful punch. Instead he's very average all the way around yet has continued to be at the top of the boxing world late into his 30's and seems to have gotten better as time has gone on.

That is EXTREMELY rare in the world of boxing because make no mistake about it, this is a young mans game.

Mayweather on the other hand has INCREDIBLE natural talents. His speed is amazing, reactions, reflexes and even power when he was fighting at the lower weight classes.

Mayweather is also a great boxer/counter puncher but he has the advantage of being able to do things that JMM cannot because of physical ability.

For me, I'm more impressed with JMM personally because he's done much more with much less.

There also might not be or ever has been a more intelligent boxer than JMM.

So because Floyd is the better athlete he can't be a better counter puncher? No. His high level of boxing equipped with his natural athleticism is what actually leads to him being the greater counter puncher.

[-KPB-]

There's a difference between football and boxing and I didn't know I had to take your hand and walk you through something so clear. If you are a 5'11" QB, that's a disadvantage because it's not the pre-requisite for that position. Just like being an offensive lineman and weighing under 300lbs wouldn't be smart.

In boxing there are weight classes and certian weight classes have different advantages. Being a 6 ft heavyweight is nothing special but if you are a 6 ft welter weight, that's an advantage. That doesn't mean you can't be a straw weight and be naturally gifted.

Do you understand the difference?



I don't dispute that in the least and like I said, my praise of one isn't an insult to the other. I'm comparing Floyd to JMM and when you compare those two's physical tools, JMM falls very short. It doesn't mean JMM is as slow as Margarito but he definitely has had to work with much less. Like I said, for him to be at this level at 39 yrs of age is ridiculously impressive. That's not taking anything from Floyd in the least.



In the case of Chavez he had different physical abilities that could be comparable. Taylor was definitely faster but Chavez was a much harder puncher and his chin was one of the greatest in the history of boxing.

So there's a basis for comparison there. JMM doesn't have a great chin, he doesn't have a bad one but we have seen him hurt and down many times. Chavez was down once against Frankie Randall and everyone was shocked to see him fall, that's how good his chin was.

There are different physical gifts one could have and my argument is that JMM really wasn't blessed with any of them. It doesn't mean he's an invalid...lol

Just that he can't rely on other things the way gifted fighters can.

But isnt JMM now just able to get by at this level by being a lot smarter than everyone else.....why are you so impressed with that.......

Shouldnt Bernard Hopkins be more more impressive to you because no matter how much phyically gifted he is compared to JMM, he is still fighting when he is SIX years older than JMM