Usyk is the true lineal, Fury is fraud

[M312]

Mayweather vs Pacquiao

Mayweather became lineal champion when he beat Carlos Baldimir.

I'm assuming again you just mean number 1, not lineal. Theres a huge difference. The lineal doesn't have to even be good (e.g. Baldimir!). Lineal follows the timeline of the original champion...

Oh my, hear we go again lol

[IronDanHamza]

I completely understand what you think lineal is, I just happen to completely disagree.

You believe a new lineage isn't created until we have an undisputed champion. Right?

So you've put lineal in the hands of the corrupt boxing orgs - ie the exact opposite of what lineal should represent. So no, I definitely don't agree with that.

And I don't need Google to give me someone else's interpretation.

None of this changes the FACT that Aj and Klitschko were not the “consensus” #1 and #2.

[billeau2]

It's amazing how many people hold wildly different views regarding what lineal status is or how it is won.

And yet everyone is adamant that their way is the only and correct interpretation.

Is anyone starting to realise that Lineal as a title you walk in to the ring with is a nonsense? It's an historical designation that the passing of time and fights resolves - not something you decide in the present when there's so much doubt.

Its not nonsense... When someone gives you a gift and you throw it away that is called ignorance. There are many systems that qualify lineage. japanese Ko ryu systems are some of the most sophisticated, the lineal by comparison is fluid, it is open to interpretation at times, that does not mean it is inferior.

What people fail to appreciate is that the lineal has a purity to it. It is untainted by any affiliations. It is simple and elegant if people choose to use it, all the better, if they do not, then fans throw away one of the last control points they have in the sport.

[billeau2]

There is not always a lineal!

You're talking about a number one or perhaps Ring champion. That's very different.

Not a lineal champion. That only comes from the original belt holder or an undisputed champion if the lineage is broken.

Google the definition.

yes there is... worse case scenerio the last undisputed would be the lineal! Stop it.

[billeau2]

It has nothing to do with being the best!
You are totally confused about what a lineal champion is.

The lineal champion could be a complete bum who KOs the lineal champion. He may not even hold any belts. It's simply a timeline following the original champion or the undisputed champion if the lineage is broken.

For example, Shannon Briggs was once lineal champion when he beat George Foreman, despite not holding a belt and clearly not being the best as he was defeated without defending it once.

Why? Because the timeline followed the original Undisputed champion in that 'reign', Floyd Patterson in the 50s (after Marciano retired). Once Lewis retired, he also retired the lineal title, which was then muddied by the amount of titles in there.

There hadn't been a undisputed champion in Heavyweight for years. Boxings marquee division, the heavyweight division had no clout and there was no progress being made to getting a new undisputed champion as obviously little chance of Wladimir fighting Vital. So Wladimir was 'awarded' lineal as a special circumstance for marketing purposes and to bring luster back to Boxings main division.
Not because he was lineal champion. But because they said he couldn't be as he wouldn't fight his brother.

My point is (and many other people) is if Wladimir couldn't fight Vitali, he cannot be lineal. That's factual. 'Awarding' it only muddied the waters. Great for marketing, but really no different to a Franchise champion. Just made up for marketing. Some people will even believe it.

The sooner we get an undisputed champion to clear up this mess the better.

Toffee too since I found the effort to write this.

Lineal has zero to do with opinion or being the best.

Hope this clears it up. If not, I give up lol

The definition you cited is not right... That is the confusion

https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+the+lineal+title+in+boxng&rlz=1C1RXQR_enUS1006US1006&oq=definition+of+the+lineal+title+in+boxng+&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390l2.17714j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is the link you used... the first definition given, it is not correct. It might be a generic definition, but it does not describe the lineal title holder at heavyweight.

Here is a better description,

https://www.linealboxingchampion.com/what-is-the-lineal-championship

I agree with you that alphabet soup would like to replace the lineal... But once we give that up we lose the purity of what really makes a champion. And the lineal has always been about the heavyweights... thats just a fact.

[billeau2]

If you ask a person of average intelligence on the street who they would consider a "champion" and gave them two alternatives: What a group of sanctioning bodies say who control who gets to fight who, OR the guy that beats the best fighter out there... what are most people going to choose?

When people DO NOT establish the lineal it does not make it non existent...

[Toffee]

How’s it opinion when Ring, TBRB, ESPN, Boxrec and essentially every other reputable source all corroborate Fury’s lineal status.

Fury is the lineal champion mate, get over it. I know you don’t like him but it is what it is.

Because it's not true that those organisations corroborate lineal status.

They award their own champions and ratings. Springs Toledo actually left the Ring because he felt their ratings were tainted. He joined TBRB, but has been very clear that the TBRB champion is not the same thing as the lineal champion.

Opinion is whether Fury should be stripped of lineal status for his bans, retirement and inactivity. I happen to think he was.

Opinion is whether Klitschko and Joshua were top 2 in April 2017. I'm surprised how few think they were.

Opinion is whether Fury and Wilder were top 2 for their rematch. I don't think you could rate Fury there given his best win was a draw at that point.

It's all opinions, and the three above are nowhere near clear cut.

[M312]

The definition you cited is not right... That is the confusion

https://www.google.com/search?q=defi...hrome&ie=UTF-8

This is the link you used... the first definition given, it is not correct. It might be a generic definition, but it does not describe the lineal title holder at heavyweight.

Here is a better description,

https://www.linealboxingchampion.com...l-championship


I agree with you that alphabet soup would like to replace the lineal... But once we give that up we lose the purity of what really makes a champion. And the lineal has always been about the heavyweights... thats just a fact.

Lol. I have given up trying to explain lineal to people.

I go by a historical definition, you go by some random fan made website.

You also still seem to think it has something to do with being the 'best'. Which just isn't relevant in any way. It's just a timeline.

I cannot explain it clearer, I'm just not able or arsed lol.

I'll move on and wait for an Undisputed champion.

[Toffee]

Lol. I have given up trying to explain lineal to people.

I go by a historical definition, you go by some random fan made website.

You also still seem to think it has something to do with being the 'best'. Which just isn't relevant in any way. It's just a timeline.

I cannot explain it clearer, I'm just not able or arsed lol.

I'll move on and wait for an Undisputed champion.

He never stated anything about 'best'? Nor did I. You keep coming back to rebuking that... but it's an argument that doesn't exist!

You're pretty wound up about this considering it's you putting forward the idea that the orgs (Undisputed) should dictate when a new lineage is created.

There's so much opinion around lineal 'rules' - yet you're putting forward the one principle that is just objectively wrong.

As for you using an historical definition while others use websites... weren't you the one telling me to 'Google it' and I was resisting for that exact reason?!

Where are your rules coming from? You keep resisting that question. I'm guessing if you're critical of website definitions then you're reading the rules from ancient scrolls? Were the rules solely handed down to you?

[billeau2]

Lol. I have given up trying to explain lineal to people.

I go by a historical definition, you go by some random fan made website.

You also still seem to think it has something to do with being the 'best'. Which just isn't relevant in any way. It's just a timeline.

I cannot explain it clearer, I'm just not able or arsed lol.

I'll move on and wait for an Undisputed champion.

Historically the lineal refers only to heavyweights my friend. I assure you I am going strictly by historical usage. The link I gave you was not from a fan! It explains clearly the concept of the lineal.

When you say it is erronous to think the lineal involves the best that is an open ended situation my friend! It is a concept of "the best" not an absolute. No technically if you understand what the lineal means it does not deal with the best, it deals with the individual who beats the best. I don't know why you think I said otherwise but for the sake of clarification:

The lineal is a title that still is associated, as it started to be associated, with the heavyweight title holder. Historically this might well be because originally the heavyweight was the only titled division. BUT it remained that way for two other possible reasons: 1) heavyweight was and is an OPEN division... theoretically anyone can fight for this title. 2) In the preclassical boxing paradigm being heavier was actually often a disadvantage... So a lighter man could claim the title.

The lineal holder can be fluid because often a retired fighter may lay a claim, there might be several aspiring titlists that need to establish a pecking order. Also because of alphabet soup a lineal may not be able to unify the title... This is easily resolved by asking fans who they consider the best! because the lineal belongs to the fans!

At the heart of it is the simple definition of the lineal that states: the man that beats the best is the lineal. That means even with a divided title the fighter considered the best is the one to beat... SIMPLE! If Vitalie had beat Lewis when they fought, it would not have mattered who the other alphabet soup guys were!

Its a simple concept... What throws people is when the lineal is debated. But this should never be a problem for the above reasons.

I think you made some great points BTW and I agree with a lot of what you said... But the lineal is a fluid concept and cannot be explained based on denotation.