Why have modern fighters not evolved to be better than SRR

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Joe very understated personality was perfect for upsetting the status quo in boxing. Cassius Clay was never beloved, nor in the beginning Ali until the Vietnam issue won him the anti Vietnam War college crowd that only grew after the Supremes ruling.

Looking at l'l floydy today, obviously a PPV magnet after a tortuous start whereas Manny was on instant PPV as soon as Arum got him. Ali and Manny could wade into a crowd and get mobbed in love. l'l floydy can't hardly be seen in public without a ton of beefsters he has on permanent payroll, a couple he even used so he could beat up Baby Mama while they held the two kids in place for the spectacle. Seems his manhood and ego are quite fragile compared to Manny or Ali.

I can see the PAC Man on the list he is a national icon.

IMO Ali became a symbol of many things but not the black community at large.

[max baer]

There it is, the proof is in the pudding. Some boxing fans are very nostalgic for a time period they didn't live through and I don't get it. Boxing is still going strong, just because families don't sit around the radio and listen to fights like in the 30's doesn't mean boxing is dead. It's a huge sport. Period.

very well said good sir i agree totally

[QueensburyRules]

I can see the PAC Man on the list he is a national icon.

IMO Ali became a symbol of many things but not the black community at large.

- - Sitting next to a black fella near my age at a bar waiting on the main event of l'l floydy rematch with Castillo, so of course media commentary unearthed Ali comparisons. We got to talking about how popular Ali was next to the l'l feather when he revealed he wasn't an Ali fan.

Flabbergasted that I was hearing such a thing, we hashed out he was from a family of Christians, probably Southern Baptist given he was in Texas, and he just didn't hold NOI or ******s in general in much respect. He was tolerant understanding different point of views, but anyway our conversation died out in the stink of their rematch where l'l fellar let Castillo rack his ribs to no effect since judges seldom score body shots

Maybe his boxing beliefs were minority, but there none the less. It was factual that Black Mainstream, ie Christians that controlled their media and politics, regaled JJ for unnecessarily creating animosity towards their people. Certainly the poorer elements were JJohnson fans, the ones publically drinking while celebrating that sparked the riots.

Lest we crack on those ancients, we moderns in the 3rd millennia have yet to quell mind bogglingly destructive riots, the natural anarchists who live among us.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Sitting next to a black fella near my age at a bar waiting on the main event of l'l floydy rematch with Castillo, so of course media commentary unearthed Ali comparisons. We got to talking about how popular Ali was next to the l'l feather when he revealed he wasn't an Ali fan.

Flabbergasted that I was hearing such a thing, we hashed out he was from a family of Christians, probably Southern Baptist given he was in Texas, and he just didn't hold NOI or ******s in general in much respect. He was tolerant understanding different point of views, but anyway our conversation died out in the stink of their rematch where l'l fellar let Castillo rack his ribs to no effect since judges seldom score body shots

Maybe his boxing beliefs were minority, but there none the less. It was factual that Black Mainstream, ie Christians that controlled their media and politics, regaled JJ for unnecessarily creating animosity towards their people. Certainly the poorer elements were JJohnson fans, the ones publically drinking while celebrating that sparked the riots.

Lest we crack on those ancients, we moderns in the 3rd millennia have yet to quell mind bogglingly destructive riots, the natural anarchists who live among us.

"His momma named him Clay, I call him Clay."

Arsenio Hall, Coming to America

Many 1960s Christians blacks never got past the NOI conversion.

P.S. Sorry I keep quoting the film, but that short little barber shop skit is steeped in popular boxing history.

[QueensburyRules]

"His momma named him Clay, I call him Clay."

Arsenio Hall, Coming to America

Many 1960s Christians blacks never got past the NOI conversion.

P.S. Sorry I keep quoting the film, but that short little barber shop skit is steeped in popular boxing history.

- - It is steeped in elements of truth, but keep in mind had you made that film featuring an all black cast save the supporting *** role with the same dialogue...well...

[them_apples]

Metrics for measurement:
Public polling (See links provided)
Gross international revenue
Total worldwide newspaper print (Archaic)
Internet top 10 sites traffic worldwide
Top 5 annual salary average
Total annual salary average
Historic value (Applied formula)

You find "bigger" sports regionally, such as NBA, NFL, MLB in the US, Futball, Rugby, Cricket in the British Commonwealth, or Curling in Canada.
International measures, however, as acknowledged by a percent of the world's 8 billion inhabitants? Most don't give a **** what an NFL quarterback makes, or even know what his job is in that sport.
.....They mostly all know Muhammad Ali though. Pele, Jordan, Ruth, Ronaldo, Brown, Maradona, Woods, Brady, Federer, Gretzky, Thorp, Etc. Less so.

It's a measurement of something that you can bend to your liking.
Boxing is a clean, upright and dignified fight. The rules as each of the great historical cultures admired the most, distinguished from a weaponry assault (or a dirty fight). It's here to stay. It's thriving, still setting new records. So relax.​

its just so hard to watch 2 teenagers mouth off and jab eachother all night and then go party together after. Like they are being little “mayweathersâ€� business savvy boxers.

cool, better health, more money - low level fights. Still exciting, but any time a conversation comes up involving past eras its like why even bother comparing, its not even fair or even the same sport. It would be like kids fighting men. When we know the same kid 40 years ago was a violent traumatized soldier of the street where every second spent in the gym was another second spent alive and out of trouble. Sure theres the odd fighter who grew up harder today, but with so few and far between there is no iron to sharpen iron.

[Bundana]

its just so hard to watch 2 teenagers mouth off and jab eachother all night and then go party together after. Like they are being little âÂÂmayweathersâ business savvy boxers.

cool, better health, more money - low level fights. Still exciting, but any time a conversation comes up involving past eras its like why even bother comparing, its not even fair or even the same sport. It would be like kids fighting men. When we know the same kid 40 years ago was a violent traumatized soldier of the street where every second spent in the gym was another second spent alive and out of trouble. Sure theres the odd fighter who grew up harder today, but with so few and far between there is no iron to sharpen iron.

So today's boxers can best be described as sissis, who party together after engaging in low level jab-fests? Comparing them to fighters from back in the day, would be like comparing kids to real men? This never-ending attempt to put down modern boxing, is obviously some strange obsession with you! Where does this hatred come from?

[them_apples]

So today's boxers can best be described as sissis, who party together after engaging in low level jab-fests? Comparing them to fighters from back in the day, would be like comparing kids to real men? This never-ending attempt to put down modern boxing, is obviously some strange obsession with you! Where does this hatred come from?

correct, the hatred comes from reality. I grew up in the changing of eras. when you study something enough, you notice the general consensus doesn't really have any ground outside of a majority opinion. Not just with boxing but with a lot of things.

My general view is the best fighters from the past, if pitted h2h on their best nights vs modern counter parts, would end in a clean sweep.

Boxing isn't really a way out anymore for the poorer folk, at least not in north america. It's become a different industry all together.

You gotta picture this:

World war 1 is ended, everybodies dad is a vet. many young men walking the street all have blood on their hands, and their nerves have been tested to the point that a labelling was created: PTSD. Kids grow up fast and can take care of themselves pretty well by the age of 16. Many move out. Some picked up boxing for a job and fought every weekend or multiple times a night on some occasions. Tough guys don't even know what brain damage is. (not that this is a good thing) in regards to fighting, all you did was fight. You got good at it, and you were comfortable with it.

Now if you are asking me where I got this info from as you always do, besides similar stories being easy to find - Ray Robinsons description of joining a boxing gym was quite relatable. He said doctors had to beg coaches not to let kids fight because they had concussions. Kids would come back after victories and just pass out in the change room. He said in boxing you had to be smart and you had to be tough, or you couldn't make it. This is why when I made the post about older fighters having better chins, the point went right over everyone's head and they only responded to the title, including you. The concept of them having better chins is the system of boxing ensured anyone at the top had an iron beard, genetically. This is also why mothers got involved and changed amateur boxing. Nobody would recall this, but the amount of concussions, broken ribs, torn retinas that kids endured in boxing has now been remedied down to a small few.

Boxing was a mean violent place. Many champions "used sparring partners up". they did this for the mental edge. The psychology of it (its a real thing). If you have knocked out or stopped 4-5 dudes back to back purposefully in one day then mentally, you are ready. Some sparring partners, like scrap iron johnson, were tough enough for the top but not skilled enough. They really don't do this anymore with as much conviction, because its not considered ethical. It happens today in spurts. There aren't 100's of gyms employing this type of thing regularly though.

If you hang around the amateur game, and listen to the strategies they use - you would notice it's not designed with bad intentions. The combinations, everything, even down to how it looks so judges will pick it up (ammy scoring is terrible, ruthlessly fraudulent) the fighters have 300+ fights like this THEN turn pro. To you, you might think they look good, to me I personally think they all fight like amatuers.

If you read excerpts on advice from trainers of the old (well known ones) the type of training and advice they give is much more fight related, and based on how to break an opponent down. Outside of chins as statcards, its actually very hard to knock out a determined person. When someone gets knocked out, it's often from fatigue and mental quittage within ones self. (in cases where the opponent is clearly knocked out cold, this is a physical knockout) but we can see how rare those really are. Anyhow, a knockout begins with a good body attack.

A good body attack is an acquired skill. It's not as simple as it looks. Because the body has 2 states: braced and relaxed. If the fighter is bracing, a conditioned core is incredibly hard - and although still fatiguing to tense up - can generally shrug off most blows no matter how hard. This is why early on in fights you see hard body shots land and fighters seemingly take it well. It's because they had the energy and reflexes to tense up. old pros attacked the body in different rythms. You see how often they just look like they are tapping the body? (without much force). Well, in the middle of a fight, if you are tired - and those little taps you decide not to flex on, well - they hurt because your body is soft. They would constantly screw with a fighters flex radar by throwing light punches and mixing in hard ones. The goal is to land a hard body shot that the opponent doesn't see and brace for. right into the soft guts. You can see now how being ripped has NOTHING to do with this, your stamina and IQ (knowing what punches are coming) do. Start mixing in head shots with the same concept and you can now see how knockout artists were born.

With that being explained to you, and it being easy to make sense of - who today at all employs this type of stuff? They all attack on a numbered amateur system. Hand pad attacks. its really just to score points. Sure through practice anyone will eventually get better at fighting in any style - but that goes back to my other point, when fighters retire today they often skillwise are just starting to peak, but they are physically getting too old.

The closest we will ever see in HD on the modern stage was James Toney when he moved up to fight Holyfield (because hes experienced and well trained). Problem is he was obese, but the skill level he displayed for that era was a level above anyone in boxing. People don't give him enough credit, being an obese middleweight who really only sparred for training. It's just a good example of skills and experience being the most important factor. I would write a breakdown of that fight if you don't see the skills. But otherwise, in no other world would an obese middleweight move up and absolutely toy with Holyfield, even at that age.


This is what would happen if Ezzard Charles got in with Usyk.

[Bundana]

correct, the hatred comes from reality. I grew up in the changing of eras. when you study something enough, you notice the general consensus doesn't really have any ground outside of a majority opinion. Not just with boxing but with a lot of things.

My general view is the best fighters from the past, if pitted h2h on their best nights vs modern counter parts, would end in a clean sweep.

Boxing isn't really a way out anymore for the poorer folk, at least not in north america. It's become a different industry all together.

You gotta picture this:

World war 1 is ended, everybodies dad is a vet. many young men walking the street all have blood on their hands, and their nerves have been tested to the point that a labelling was created: PTSD. Kids grow up fast and can take care of themselves pretty well by the age of 16. Many move out. Some picked up boxing for a job and fought every weekend or multiple times a night on some occasions. Tough guys don't even know what brain damage is. (not that this is a good thing) in regards to fighting, all you did was fight. You got good at it, and you were comfortable with it.

Now if you are asking me where I got this info from as you always do, besides similar stories being easy to find - Ray Robinsons description of joining a boxing gym was quite relatable. He said doctors had to beg coaches not to let kids fight because they had concussions. Kids would come back after victories and just pass out in the change room. He said in boxing you had to be smart and you had to be tough, or you couldn't make it. This is why when I made the post about older fighters having better chins, the point went right over everyone's head and they only responded to the title, including you. The concept of them having better chins is the system of boxing ensured anyone at the top had an iron beard, genetically. This is also why mothers got involved and changed amateur boxing. Nobody would recall this, but the amount of concussions, broken ribs, torn retinas that kids endured in boxing has now been remedied down to a small few.

Boxing was a mean violent place. Many champions "used sparring partners up". they did this for the mental edge. The psychology of it (its a real thing). If you have knocked out or stopped 4-5 dudes back to back purposefully in one day then mentally, you are ready. Some sparring partners, like scrap iron johnson, were tough enough for the top but not skilled enough. They really don't do this anymore with as much conviction, because its not considered ethical. It happens today in spurts. There aren't 100's of gyms employing this type of thing regularly though.

If you hang around the amateur game, and listen to the strategies they use - you would notice it's not designed with bad intentions. The combinations, everything, even down to how it looks so judges will pick it up (ammy scoring is terrible, ruthlessly fraudulent) the fighters have 300+ fights like this THEN turn pro. To you, you might think they look good, to me I personally think they all fight like amatuers.

If you read excerpts on advice from trainers of the old (well known ones) the type of training and advice they give is much more fight related, and based on how to break an opponent down. Outside of chins as statcards, its actually very hard to knock out a determined person. When someone gets knocked out, it's often from fatigue and mental quittage within ones self. (in cases where the opponent is clearly knocked out cold, this is a physical knockout) but we can see how rare those really are. Anyhow, a knockout begins with a good body attack.

A good body attack is an acquired skill. It's not as simple as it looks. Because the body has 2 states: braced and relaxed. If the fighter is bracing, a conditioned core is incredibly hard - and although still fatiguing to tense up - can generally shrug off most blows no matter how hard. This is why early on in fights you see hard body shots land and fighters seemingly take it well. It's because they had the energy and reflexes to tense up. old pros attacked the body in different rythms. You see how often they just look like they are tapping the body? (without much force). Well, in the middle of a fight, if you are tired - and those little taps you decide not to flex on, well - they hurt because your body is soft. They would constantly screw with a fighters flex radar by throwing light punches and mixing in hard ones. The goal is to land a hard body shot that the opponent doesn't see and brace for. right into the soft guts. You can see now how being ripped has NOTHING to do with this, your stamina and IQ (knowing what punches are coming) do. Start mixing in head shots with the same concept and you can now see how knockout artists were born.

With that being explained to you, and it being easy to make sense of - who today at all employs this type of stuff? They all attack on a numbered amateur system. Hand pad attacks. its really just to score points. Sure through practice anyone will eventually get better at fighting in any style - but that goes back to my other point, when fighters retire today they often skillwise are just starting to peak, but they are physically getting too old.

The closest we will ever see in HD on the modern stage was James Toney when he moved up to fight Holyfield (because hes experienced and well trained). Problem is he was obese, but the skill level he displayed for that era was a level above anyone in boxing. People don't give him enough credit, being an obese middleweight who really only sparred for training. It's just a good example of skills and experience being the most important factor. I would write a breakdown of that fight if you don't see the skills. But otherwise, in no other world would an obese middleweight move up and absolutely toy with Holyfield, even at that age.


This is what would happen if Ezzard Charles got in with Usyk.

I think you have put up a very good case here. Well-balanced, unbiased... in fact so good, that you have won me over! How can I have been a boxing fan for so many years... without realizing, that modern boxers are skilless sissies, who would all get spanked by the oldtimers? But at last, I now get it... so better late than never, right? Anyway, thanks for the education.

[them_apples]

I think you have put up a very good case here. Well-balanced, unbiased... in fact so good, that you have won me over! How can I have been a boxing fan for so many years... without realizing, that modern boxers are skilless sissies, who would all get spanked by the oldtimers? But at last, I now get it... so better late than never, right? Anyway, thanks for the education.

haha well you asked

I typed a little better because it was on my desktop. And yeah I know ye shall never be swayed