The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[kafkod]

Goodness Gracious, Great balls of fire! Pretty philosophical there newbie.

All human knowledge exists only in the minds of human beings. Popes, Kings, Presidents, Baseball World Series winners...yaaa.

Are you pretty sure that the lineal heavyweight title was invented by Nat Fleischer at Ring Magazine?
Somebody should have told this to John L.

Yes, I'm interested in philosophy, so I'm aware that there is a difference between knowledge and belief.

I know that at this moment in time the lineal heavyweight title exists only as an idea.

"Are you pretty sure that the lineal heavyweight title was invented by Nat Fleischer at Ring Magazine?
Somebody should have told this to John L"

Yes, I believe that Ring Magazine came up with the idea of lineal titles and that for quite a few years, they awarded them to fighters based on man-who-beat-the-man lineage. According to Marchegiano, it was Nat Fleischer himself who came up with the idea. I know that Nat was the owner and editor of Ring at that time, and March knows his boxing history, so I'm taking his word on that.

I'm also pretty sure that John L himself was awarded his "lineal title" retrospectively and would have had no idea what the term even meant when he first became champion.

[kafkod]

Listen, Beta-Boi: If you're going to try to insult me, at least get your basic sh it straight. I'm not a flying monkey, I'm the green bi tch who sends the flying monkeys

This is the internet, you can be whatever you want here. Like a green witch, without owning a broomstick or a pointy hat. Or being green.

Or a boxing expert, without knowing shit about boxing.

[kafkod]

And that's MS Bi tch to you

Please state your preferred pronouns, then I'll know what I'm dealing with.

[kafkod]

History does not tell us the lineal title was invented by Fleischer. By saying this you can surely provide evidence, right? History tells us the lineal title started with John L. Sullivan and continues right up to Usyk today. This is easily proven by a succession of champions.

You claim The Ring got rid of Lineal in the 90's because it was not longer viable. Two questions. First, can you show evidence of this? And two, if that were true than why bring it back in an era with even more orgs and titles? Your assumptions make no sense.

You do understand that the lineal history you're talking about was compiled after John L Sullivan's title reign - and probably his actual life - was over, yeah?

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes, I'm interested in philosophy, so I'm aware that there is a difference between knowledge and belief.

I know that at this moment in time the lineal heavyweight title exists only as an idea.

"Are you pretty sure that the lineal heavyweight title was invented by Nat Fleischer at Ring Magazine?
Somebody should have told this to John L"

Yes, I believe that Ring Magazine came up with the idea of lineal titles and that for quite a few years, they awarded them to fighters based on man-who-beat-the-man lineage. According to Marchegiano, it was Nat Fleischer himself who came up with the idea. I know that Nat was the owner and editor of Ring at that time, and March knows his boxing history, so I'm taking his word on that.

I'm also pretty sure that John L himself was awarded his "lineal title" retrospectively and would have had no idea what the term even meant when he first became champion.

And why might have Fleischer created such a title, you ask?

Because the SBs (NBA/NYSAC) were already starting to identify different competing champions and were threating to strip title holders who dare challenged them.

'Who beat the man who beat the man' was already the standard without Fleischer assistance.

But right from the get go the problem with that simple logic was challenged by the greedy, agenda ridden sanctioning bodies.

Once again the term lineal is a retronym forced into creation by corruption sanctioning bodies. So when ot was created is irrelevant. Why it was created is the issue.

It existed long before the term was coined. It never before needed a word to describe itself until the corrupt sanctioning bodies started playing their games.

[JAB5239]

You do understand that the lineal history you're talking about was compiled after John L Sullivan's title reign - and probably his actual life - was over, yeah?

After his life was over? Do you have proof of this? The lineage started with Sullivan, the first gloved heavyweight champion and has continued on. Nothing can change that, it just is.

And you still didn't answer any of my questions. You make these claims but don't back them up.

[kafkod]

And why might have Fleischer created such a title, you ask?

Because the SBs (NBA/NYSAC) were already starting to identify different competing champions and were threating to strip title holders who dare challenged them.

'Who beat the man who beat the man' was already the standard without Fleischer assistance.

But right from the get go the problem with that simple logic was challenged by the greedy, agenda ridden sanctioning bodies.

Once again the term lineal is a retronym forced into creation by corruption sanctioning bodies. So when ot was created is irrelevant. Why it was created is the issue.

It existed long before the term was coined. It never before needed a word to describe itself until the corrupt sanctioning bodies started playing their games.

Nothing you are saying here contradicts what I've been saying. I was talking about how the concept of a lineal title came into being, and you're talking about why it was necessary.

Like I said, nothing contradictory there.

[kafkod]

After his life was over? Do you have proof of this? The lineage started with Sullivan, the first gloved heavyweight champion and has continued on. Nothing can change that, it just is.

And you still didn't answer any of my questions. You make these claims but don't back them up.

To my best knowledge, the record of lineal champions you are talking about was started by Ring Magazine in the 1920s. John L Sullivan died in 1918. Do the math.

[JAB5239]

To my best knowledge, the record of lineal champions you are talking about was started by Ring Magazine in the 1920s. John L Sullivan died in 1918. Do the math.

As I've already stated, a lineage starts with the first recognized champion. It doesnt need a magazine to claim it, it just is. Two come after one and three after two, right? That is a lineage of numbers. Same thing with boxing champions. It's sequential and it's prudent. My question still remains from several posts ago. You claimed The Ring got rid Lineal in the 90's because it wasnt viable in the 3 belt era. So why bring it back now in an era with even more orgs?

[kafkod]

Through out this entire thread lineal has been cast as fan will and bodies cast as the will of the elites.


Okay then, who here sees Tom Cribb as the champion for elites and Tom Molyneaux as the real champion given his is the first title ever made by fans who are not elites?


But dat BK doe so don't count?

Alright but the point's going to stand.



As far as I know, this thing you guys call fan supported championship has happened twice in all of boxing history and I mentioned one of those.

Sullivan sure gets a lot of personal credit for the acts of his backers, but fair enough, I have never seen any charge the idea his title was financed by his promoters.


So we have Moly, who held a belt created for him by fans, and John L who held a belt created for him by fans.

We are to say promoters are good and honest men when there is no body to corrupt them? That doesn't make any sense, promoters have no pretense of fairness, they can't be corrupted, their stated goal is to make money. Bodies can be corrupted, given their stated goal is fairness, money sways them from it often.

But in ANY time prior, we are to act as if the elite control of titles was fan driven are we? While we maintain the bodies do not listen to fans at all in the present?


Where is that franchise belt? Oh but the bodies don't care doe.

Where is the lack of elite influence in boxing?



Richard Dover, an elite, started the interest.

John Jackson, another elite, popularized the sport. The poor man he beat through nefarious tactics wasn't even called champion, only ever former champion.

King George III starts the belt system

Was it the poor and huddled masses who brought boxing as we know it to America? What?!?! Nah doe?! Rich people doe?! I'm so shocked.

Are the first American champions senators and such nonsense as American elites tend to take? Shocker that. Is the first man in America famous for his boxing called champion? No ... hmmm ... not because he was Irish is it? Yes? In fact it's tied to the whole anti-irish immigration politics of America during the time.

Oh but the great John L doe.

Let me ask you guys, did Sullivan fight Corbett because fans said to or was best or because William A. Brady paid the fee?

Did The Great John L enter the ring with George Godfrey because fans were so racists then couldn't stand the title being on a black man?

Oh but the hand of the elite doesn't exist because fans made a belt.

Did Corbett fight Fitzsimmons to please the fans or did Dan Stuart buy the position for his man?

When does this stop?




It is called PRIZE fighting not ****ing glory fighting. Here's a shocker; poor people don't have the money to pay the prize. That is true during lineal exclusively and it is true through lineal as an alternative to bodies.

In fact, without a sanctioning body what chance does any man have of getting a title on sport alone?


Fans doe? you sure? You sure you want to go to bat for lineal meaning fan will in prize fighting? ;)

Lineal title = good for the sport and the fans. Alphabet belts = bad for the sport and the fans, is a false dichotomy.

Frank Warren and Tyson Fury sold Fury vs Seferi and Pianetta as lineal title fights.Then Bob Arum got in on the act with Fury vs Schwarz and Wallin. Nothing good about **** like that, for the sport or the fans.

In a recent interview, Usyk thanked AJ for agreeing to defend the IBF, WBO and WBA titles against him, instead of ditching the WBO when they ordered AJ vs Usyk as a mandatory.

Usyk rightly recognised that without the 3 belts he won from AJ, he would never have a got a chance to fight Fury for the WBC title and fulfill his dream of becoming undisputed HW champ. Which means he would never have become lineal champion either, btw.

So without the sanctioning bodies, the man now recognised as the best HW of the present era would have languished in obscurity as king of the Who Needs Him Club at HW. Nothing good about that. for the sport or the fans.