The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[billeau2]

Kafkod it is not that you do not agree that the lineal is good, or bad... many members do not care for the lineal. It is your absurd argument that it is not real.

[Willow The Wisp]

Popular thread!
If my days slow down, I will respond with more detail (and everyone awaits that with bated breath, I'm sure).
Liniage of the Heavyweight/Openweight boxing world championship is very different from "Undisputed", we must remember. The former simply reflecting an enduring principle where the passing of the crown can only occur in the ring with real fights, whether by man to man or by a publicly agreed upon elimination tournament encompassing all top contenders; whereas, Undisputed, in the vernacular, simply refers to the fragile collection of all the "Major" sanctioning body titles.

I gotta say. I have strong feelings about the Lineal Heavyweight World Title, and I struggle with maintaining any respect for the boxing thoughts of any fan who professes that the wares of Los Baditos are just as important.

[Bronson66]

Popular thread!
If my days slow down, I will respond with more detail (and everyone awaits that with bated breath, I'm sure).
Liniage of the Heavyweight/Openweight boxing world championship is very different from "Undisputed", we must remember. The former simply reflecting an enduring principle where the passing of the crown can only occur in the ring with real fights, whether by man to man or by a publicly agreed upon elimination tournament encompassing all top contenders; whereas, Undisputed, in the vernacular, simply refers to the fragile collection of all the "Major" sanctioning body titles.

I gotta say. I have strong feelings about the Lineal Heavyweight World Title, and I struggle with maintaining any respect for the boxing thoughts of any fan who professes that the wares of Los Baditos are just as important.

Just to add my two cents.
When Ali first announced his retirement and Frazier beat Ellis,that made Joe the Champ as far as I was concerned.

When Frazier won FOTC there could be no further argument imo.

Some may agree with me others may not,just my opinion.

[billeau2]

Just to add my two cents.
When Ali first announced his retirement and Frazier beat Ellis,that made Joe the Champ as far as I was concerned.

When Frazier won FOTC there could be no further argument imo.

Some may agree with me others may not,just my opinion.

I would tend to agree. To my thinking the need for Ali to be allowed a comeback does not necessarily reside in any provision, knowing full well that to call Ali's situation a retirement could fit into a Lineal provision... Rather it was what was right. And at that point to call upon the lineal, or perhaps to call upon other aspects of "power to the people" to demand something, is the equivalent of William James admonition that "Whether the barn burns down, or a barbQ turns, roast pork is roast pork."

To me to say that the lineal did what it was supposed to does not diminish Frazier's victories. The effect was to usher in a second wind of greatness to the division. I honestly wonder if we will ever have such a competative heavyweight division again... I definitely think we will before Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak is broken!

[kafkod]

You know what you remind me of? A sandy little web goblin who's butthurt that some of us in here are actually on friendly terms or even legit friends, while you aren't invited to the party. The only one keeping this going is you.....because, apparently, you're obsessed with getting the last word in with people your weak-ass arguments will never convince.

Oh look, somebody has summoned a flying monkey to join in the attack on me. And it's a Swiftie!

[kafkod]

Sure. Him, Wisp, Pep, Bronson, Billedriver. Plenty of others. There's probably more i missed. Than there is history itself.

History tells us that the lineal title was invented by Nat Fleischer at Ring Magazine and awarded to champions based on the results of sanctioned world title fights.

History also tells us that it was discontinued by the Ring back in the 1990s because it was no longer viable in the 3 belt era. Since then, the idea of the lineal title has been just that ... an idea, and nothing more. And here's the critical thing to remember about ideas ... they exist only in the minds of human beings, and are therefor subjective and open to disagreement from people who hold other, opposing ideas, in their own minds.

[kafkod]

Kafkod it is not that you do not agree that the lineal is good, or bad... many members do not care for the lineal. It is your absurd argument that it is not real.

How many times do I need to repeat this before it penetrates your thick skull? What I am saying is that the lineal title exists only as an idea.

Marchegiano said exactly the same thing. So why are you guys showing respect to him, and denigrating me?

[kafkod]

And for the record, I wasn't planning on weighing in on this one. I'm not a big proponent of the "lineal champion" as I think it leads to all sorts of problems and absurdities. That being said, the ABC orgs are utterly corrupt and should have unalived decades ago. In my opinion there isn't, at present, any good way for really determining champions other than public perception.....which doesn't always line up with lineal.

I actually agree with everything you say here, except the part about there being no way of determining champions other than public opinion, which is only partly correct.

Yes, the sanctioning orgs are either corrupt - in the case of the WBA, WBC and WBO - or overly pedantic in the way they apply their rules, in the case of the IBF. But, whether you like them or not, the sanctioning ogs do control public perception when it comes to determining who the champion is.

Last week I watched an interview with Usyk. He was thanking UK boxing fans for the support they have given him over the years.

He also thanked AJ for agreeing to defend the IBF, WBA and WBO titles against him, instead of ditching the WBO when he was ordered to defend it against Usyk. According to Usyk himself, if AJ hadn't done that, he would never have become a unified HW champ. And without the WBO, IBF and WBA belts, he would never have got a chance to fight Fury for the WBC title and achieve his dream of becoming undisputed HW champion.

Think about it. Without the 3 belts he won from AJ, Usyk - an awkward, undefeated southpaw with bottomless stamina and no fan base or money behind him - would have been king of the Who Needs Him Club at HW. He would never have become undisputed or lineal champion.

You may not like the people who control those belts, and I don't like them either. But the belts do matter, whether we like them or not.

[Dr Z]

Frazier kicked Ali @ss in their most significant fight and shut up the ******* boxing establishment that was pro Ali.

This fight was more than just a boxing match.


In the rematch Ali held Faizer like an Octopus and edged him over 12 rounds.


In the final fight, Ali was ready to quit, but Futch pulled Farzier out if it ( with little complaint for Joe ). Oh my how history changed over Futch decision to pull the plug first. Ali was totally spent.

[Bronson66]

Y'all piling on Kaf claiming some level of knowledge will ever change perspective. He is right in asserting it is an idea. It is not a complicated idea, and it is flawed.


Some of this is pretty ridiculous and I'm half minded to take up Kaf's case just to clear out more than half this pile. If you want to make it about history, let's be clear, most of you are unfit and this would condense to me and Willow with loud mouths like Bronny or Queen taking pop shots here and there, provided Willow had the motivation.


That's just the damn truth. If I take up where Kaf is going most of you will stfu and walk.


So maybe don't throw stones from your glass houses? Dismissing a fair perspective because it disagrees with you is nothing short of closemindedness.



The racism of lineal is more than a qualifier as to why boxing fans may reject lineal

The paths by the bodies are more than enough qualifier for a boxing fan to acknowledge bodies.


Don't act like knowledge and history will change this juxtaposition, It won't. Ever.



I am not Greek

I am not Italian

I am not English

I am not African

I am not even the same kind of American aggrandized by your lineal or the 3k years of boxing history I cover.


My respect for the culture that is not my own should be beyond reproach, I know more than most nationals of those descents. However there is a limit.

Never hid the fact I am latino.

You are asking me to bow down and pledge to your racist history some level of respect I do not think I should have to qualify why I oppose.



I recognize your recognition but if forcing you to recognize your racist title as racist is so traumatic for youse then you deserve a little perspective smacking. You are upholding racist beliefs and respects for what you veil as boxing history why crying at me for changing no facts and retelling the story from a perspective less kind to classist, nationalists, and racists.


You should respect that stance at least as much as I respect the fact that you respect a **** like Tunney,

What hand brought us to global boxing? Was it lineal? Was it body?


You want me to respect your history while you show mine none.


Kaf should be applauded not belittled. There should be intellectual honesty here. Provided no FACTS are altered to fit an agenda there should be no disrespect in variant opinions from variant backgrounds.

Kaf has crossed the street and sees it is good here. I have crossed the street and seen it is glorious there. You lot have yet to.






If you're a lineal mark who can't say ANYTHING positive about bodies, there's yer ****ing sign jamook

If you are a body mark who can find NOTHING to respect in lineal, there's your ****ing sign you jamook.



****ing tiny bit of middle ground every now and then huh?






Lastly, IT SHOULD NOT BE ME CALLING FOR RATIONALISM AND A LACK OF EMOTION!!!!!! FFS you lot have changed. Like a lot. You can't even really call me the loud or mean one anymore. Everyone's loud, everyone's mean, everyone's a ****ing kunt who, all of a sudden, like in the past five years, can't even ****ing understand a perspective that isn't a circlejerk.


You did just read MARCHEGIANO call for RATIONALISM ... FFS... there's yer ****ing sign.

I've said nothing against Kaf and stated just my opinion of the Frazier trilogy with Ali vis a vis the title.

Who gives a **** what nationality you are?


Every thread does not have to be about you and your gigantic ego,give it a rest FFS!


As to what you are ,your posts emphatically confirm that!