Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[Willow The Wisp]

Trust and believe- That Linial is the best, most pure, merit based system possible.

Cleaning up Boxing, as all lovers of the sport have known for 50 years; STARTS with putting the non-value add Sanctioning Bodies OUT OF BUSINESS.

[billeau2]

Trust and believe- That Linial is the best, most pure, merit based system possible.

Cleaning up Boxing, as all lovers of the sport have known for 50 years; STARTS with putting the non-value add Sanctioning Bodies OUT OF BUSINESS.

How does one do so many fans are wanting to shoot themselves in the foot? Go to any farming community and any farmer can tell you a Mule is a sterile hybrid of a donkey and a horse... Similar to both but different. Yet, you try to inform sports fans that boxing is a hybrid between sport and combative and nobody gets it... Then you see the destruction wrought: People teaching things that are wrong because the techniques were taken out of the lineage somewhere down the line... Boxers being given more alphabet soup until unifying the title is virtually impossible... And fans not caring a lick that the transmission of one champ to another must be based in the abilities of the combatants and not sanctioning bodies...

Thankless task

[kafkod]

Still nothing convincing from the history denial noobs.
A massive underdog can win any title if he wins the fight challenging for one - Doesn't have to be the real (lineal) one.

Of course, with Francis Ngannou; if you know anything about him, he's never had a pro fight where he wasn't boxing. Though one of the best fighters in MMAs short history, you can fit what he knows about wrestling, submission grappling & kickboxing in a thimble; and he's never had a martial arts class in his life. He's a boxer who's trained to check kicks & stuff takedowns. All of which you knew.
As Joshua informed us; the talent pool's deeper in high pay ranks.

In the real world, Fury vs Ngannou wasn't a world title fight, because a fighter with 0 - 0 - 0 record in boxing matches didn't qualify to fight for Fury's WBC title. In lineal loony land, it was a world title fight, and Ngannou came very close to winning a world title that didn't actually exist!

[kafkod]

No, we were not close at all. We would never have accepted it.

We don't consider Briggs a lineal champion either and history will not remember him as one.

The non-lineal loons (formally called sanctioning body bitches) keep pushing this lineage thing.

The linear MQB champion stopped with Tunney; and a figurative and convenient definition of "lineal" has replaced it ever since

No Briggs thank you.

If SBs can strip and award titles at liesure, history can ignore breaks in the "lineage," as it likes.

P.S. Kafkod, What fight were you referring to regarding an MMA fighter winning the lineal title in his first boxing match?

Fury vs Ngannou

[kafkod]

I have been consistent with my definition, explained it carefully, gave a context for it and even rooted it in the proper type of socio-poitical structure... That is called being thorough. Your just thinking on a very basic level. And it all comes back to what you claim is a misunderstanding now lol! I am not buying it but hey, its all good to disagree. I think you are slowly conceding what the lineal really is about, and then conveniently retreating into a viel of craziness stating that what is a different type of authority is "better" . YOU treat it like another alphabet and then say it doesn't hold up... duh! No shiat sherlock! It was never meant to be like an authorized title with an independent body... So no, I call BS on this firs paragraph. It is nice to come to an understanding when possible, but you canot have it both ways: either you see the difference and respect it, or you assume what you are assuming and disagree.

Maybe you realize the lineal is different, but do not want to concede this point, whatever lol... it we sub "different" for interchangable. then good for you! Then? After arguing pointlessness, claiming all kinds of things, all you are doing is finally realizing things that you should have seen pages ago.

Then you go right back into pointless arguments again the next paragraph. kafKod when did I say the Lineal had political authority? Details matter (Jack Reacher)... So this second paragraph is pointless. So is the lineal when not needed. Lennox Lewis was in no position to fight, so the lineal resolved down the line... SO? Who cares? Political titles have certain Epistemological needs, the lineal is a consensus based title used to define the best fighter. It can be traced... when it is unresolved, it is unresolved until it is resolved again. What is the big deal with this?

Regarding the rest of the post? Retirement and when there is a conflicting claim always become people's focal points when questioning the lineal... why? The lineal resolves! it always does and will. And when there are alphabet soups with champions all around, someone will eventually ask who beat the best guy out there to become the champ? and that is the power of the lineal.

To people like you? if the alphabets say Manuel Charr is a champion you do not question it and then try to take the voice away from those who respect the lineage of the lineal WHEN it is needed. And BTW again! you contradict yourself. If Fury's claim was an appeal to consensus GOOD!!! thats a big part of the idea. A consensus of boxing fans and BTW Fury was in fact the second best, and the best at the time after all! Go figure!

Manuel Charr was the WBA regular champion. I don't question that because it is an objective fact. There is such a thing as the WBA regular title. I don't believe that it needs to exist, but it does exist and Charr held it. End of story.

There is no such thing as the lineal title. I was a huge Tyson Fury fan. But when he back from his 2 year retirement claiming to be the lineal world champion, and spouting crap about a mythical world title that can only be won and lost in the ring, that he was the man-who-beat-the-man, in an unbroken line going all the way back to John L Sullivan, blah, blah, blah, I called his bullshit out for what it was.

[IronDanHamza]

Mauel Charr was the WBA regular champion. I don't question that because it is an objective fact. There is such a thing as the WBA regular title. I don't believe that it needs to exist, but it does exist and Charr held it. End of story.

There is no such thing as the lineal title. I was a huge Tyson Fury fan. But when he back from his 2 year retirement claiming to be the lineal world champion, and spouting crap about a mythical world title that can only be won and lost in the ring, that he was the man-who-beat-the-man, in an unbroken line going all the way back to John L Sullivan, blah, blah, blah, I called his bullshit out for what it was.

I'm in agreement on this.

You can't retire and then come back and be Lineal Champion. Once you inform the governing bodies of your "retirement" you have no title.

Because if that were the case Lennox Lewis could come out of retirement tomorrow and say he's Lineal Champion.

When Mayweather "retired" in 2007, he was the "Lineal Champion. But then he "retired" and vacated all his belts. And when he came back in 2009, he wasn't considered the Lineal Champion, nor should he have been.

Cotto and Margarito fought the "vacant" one. Which also made NO sense because Paul Williams was ranked #2 when they fought AND had beaten Margarito.

So again, too much confusion. Just that Welterweight division alone from 07-16, look at the mess that's there;

Mayweather retires in 2007, Lineage vacant.

Cotto and Margarito fight for a new Lineage apparently, Margarito wins, loses to Shane, who loses to Floyd.

Then in 2013 randomly Mayweather-Guererro is for the "vacant" Ring title, or Lineal Title? Who knows.

Then Mayweather and Pacquaio fight so fair to say at that time they were the two best fighters in the world P4P so you can say the winner was the "Champion".

Then Mayweather retires in 2015, somehow Pacquaio and Bradley can now fight for the "vacant" Lineal title despite making entirely ZERO logical sense.

Then? Who knows? Is there a Lineal Champion after that? I don't know.

That's just Welterweight alone from a less than 10 year period. How can anyone follow that? They can't.

[kafkod]

I'm in agreement on this.

You can't retire and then come back and be Lineal Champion. Once you inform the governing bodies of your "retirement" you have no title.

Because if that were the case Lennox Lewis could come out of retirement tomorrow and say he's Lineal Champion.

When Mayweather "retired" in 2007, he was the "Lineal Champion. But then he "retired" and vacated all his belts. And when he came back in 2009, he wasn't considered the Lineal Champion, nor should he have been.

Cotto and Margarito fought the "vacant" one. Which also made NO sense because Paul Williams was ranked #2 when they fought AND had beaten Margarito.

So again, too much confusion. Just that Welterweight division alone from 07-16, look at the mess that's there;

Mayweather retires in 2007, Lineage vacant.

Cotto and Margarito fight for a new Lineage apparently, Margarito wins, loses to Shane, who loses to Floyd.

Then in 2013 randomly Mayweather-Guererro is for the "vacant" Ring title, or Lineal Title? Who knows.

Then Mayweather and Pacquaio fight so fair to say at that time they were the two best fighters in the world P4P so you can say the winner was the "Champion".

Then Mayweather retires in 2015, somehow Pacquaio and Bradley can now fight for the "vacant" Lineal title despite making entirely ZERO logical sense.

Then? Who knows? Is there a Lineal Champion after that? I don't know.

That's just Welterweight alone from a less than 10 year period. How can anyone follow that? They can't.

You're not supposed to think about it, you're supposed to just buy it.

Because if you think about it what it means for a fighter to be the lineal champion, then you quickly realise that the idea of 2 guys fighting for a vacant lineal title is absurd!

[Marchegiano]

Trust and believe- That Linial is the best, most pure, merit based system possible.

Cleaning up Boxing, as all lovers of the sport have known for 50 years; STARTS with putting the non-value add Sanctioning Bodies OUT OF BUSINESS.

Just 100% disagree with this premise.


lineal in the modern time has been nothing more than an alternative to bodies from a group of people who whine exclusively about body corruption while not only ignoring fighter and media corruption but cheering it as if it is opposed to the exact same mechanisms folks claim turns them off of the bodies.


Historically lineal, if we have to call it that, was such a **** show it inspired the formation of bodies. Think about the **** you guys claim just a little bit. They formed for money did they? I can think of a handful of more profitable and less responsible ways ... you know ... they could just follow the Ring/TBRB model. Corruption would be rampant with **** all nothing to oppose it and you'd never hear of any fighter who doesn't have a strong promotional campaign behind them, BUT, no bodies to blame for issue that have existed before the bodies and were more prevalent before the bodies, because Ring and TBRB doesn't have mandos.

It's not the bodies who were the problem. They are the solution with no support. Promoters and promotional outfits benefit from downplaying the importance of a regulated sport. Lineal came from Nat. Do the math. You are a great chronicler, also a great mark. Simple as that.

[billeau2]

Manuel Charr was the WBA regular champion. I don't question that because it is an objective fact. There is such a thing as the WBA regular title. I don't believe that it needs to exist, but it does exist and Charr held it. End of story.

There is no such thing as the lineal title. I was a huge Tyson Fury fan. But when he back from his 2 year retirement claiming to be the lineal world champion, and spouting crap about a mythical world title that can only be won and lost in the ring, that he was the man-who-beat-the-man, in an unbroken line going all the way back to John L Sullivan, blah, blah, blah, I called his bullshit out for what it was.

Yeah whether it needs to exist indeed! that is the issue. I am not calling into question how people can make something exist here... But objective is a bit of a stretch. It exists because some agency says it does... an agency not related to fighters determining who the champ is directly through boxing activities...

You keep saying there is no such thing as the lineal... You think that constitutes an argument? Only in the Monty Python argument clinic... What you did was show how silly your argument is. Broken down it is: "If some agency says something exists it becomes objective (whatever that means) and the succession of a champion that is undisputed and supported by a consensus of knowlegable fans does not exist because no outside agency with its own motivations does not say it does... Great argument sherlock!

[billeau2]

I'm in agreement on this.

You can't retire and then come back and be Lineal Champion. Once you inform the governing bodies of your "retirement" you have no title.

Because if that were the case Lennox Lewis could come out of retirement tomorrow and say he's Lineal Champion.

When Mayweather "retired" in 2007, he was the "Lineal Champion. But then he "retired" and vacated all his belts. And when he came back in 2009, he wasn't considered the Lineal Champion, nor should he have been.

Cotto and Margarito fought the "vacant" one. Which also made NO sense because Paul Williams was ranked #2 when they fought AND had beaten Margarito.

So again, too much confusion. Just that Welterweight division alone from 07-16, look at the mess that's there;

Mayweather retires in 2007, Lineage vacant.

Cotto and Margarito fight for a new Lineage apparently, Margarito wins, loses to Shane, who loses to Floyd.

Then in 2013 randomly Mayweather-Guererro is for the "vacant" Ring title, or Lineal Title? Who knows.

Then Mayweather and Pacquaio fight so fair to say at that time they were the two best fighters in the world P4P so you can say the winner was the "Champion".

Then Mayweather retires in 2015, somehow Pacquaio and Bradley can now fight for the "vacant" Lineal title despite making entirely ZERO logical sense.

Then? Who knows? Is there a Lineal Champion after that? I don't know.

That's just Welterweight alone from a less than 10 year period. How can anyone follow that? They can't.

The retirement clause is goofy... There are reasons for it that at best are poorly understood. But it really is not that important because when invoked, at worse, it causes the Lineal to be unresolved a while. This clause is what most who do not believe the lineal has currency evoke when in reality it is not as central to the concept of the lineal as other more germaine aspects: Like, proper succession, a mechanism for creating undisputed and "the best."

Another somewhat goofy aspect is how the lineal, though it is unsaid, considers the heavyweight "the best" because it is the premier title to the fans... I can live with that one because nothing stops people from applying the same concept to other weight classes... On the retirement thing? I am trying to figure why this was part of the mechanism and here is what I think, for what it is worth:

1. Retirement was considered transitory.
2. Retirement simply meant not actively fighting for a stretch.

I do not think the concept was meant to be applied to fighters who came back after obviously being inactive... I could be wrong on this... Someone like Jeffries when he fought Johnson for example? I do not think Jeffries would be considered in any lineal capacity.


Ok, just put two sources in the other thread on the lineal: One of the sources suggests that when a champ formally retires, they give up the title. This makes sense to me. So the aspect of retirement referred to for Lineal purposes might well be more transitory than a more final retired status. That is the best I can do to qualify the retirement aspect of the lineal.