Sonny Liston vs Marciano resume comparison

[_Rexy_]

Liston's resume is uneven. He has the Marty Marshal loss, the Ali quit job's, and a devastating KO loss to Martin.

Rocky resume is a bit better.

Sonny was likely in his mid 40's when he got knocked out by Martin. Martin was #4 with Ring magazine, and had to retire right after the fight due to the damage Sonny inflicted.

[_Rexy_]

Marciano had 10 ammy fights or so. Is he not allowed to fight a bunch of stiffs? Its unreal how little experience he had for how far he went.

when he retired he was at his peak, he got better as his career went on.

Liston also only had a handful of amateur fights. I assume I had more than both Liston and Rocky put together.

[_Rexy_]

Yes I do if they are tune ups.

itsy to find evidence of this I will let you dig them up yourself.

Monzon for example fought a dude in 71 who was 0-1, his resume is littered with tuneups.

TUNEUPs to stay active.

by the 70s they weren you donâÃÂÃÂt have a point here so leave it

Four tuneups in a row though?

[_Rexy_]

I think there are many heavyweights who we can't look at the competition to know how good they were. Quite simply liston is one of them. It's all in the film though. Liston was a tactical marvel. I rank him very highly, may have been the best finisher heavyweight ever. He moved methodically, he used distance and timing very very well. He was mean, he could hit really solid may have been one of the hardest punches for all we know. Just didn't have a weakness.

The Ali fights deserve to be part of liston's judgment Day but I do think his age, the possibility that there was funny stuff going on has to be considered in this case.

Marciano was a very rare bird. Because he had no real natural talent he had to develop a method and a will of iron I could never count him out because of that. He may not be one of the best heavyweights but always in the back of my mind is a little voice that says he should have never been able to beat anybody lol.

Wathing Listons early fights. he looked very similar to Beterbiev...who also doesn't get his flowers on his footwork and boxing abilities.

[billeau2]

Wathing Listons early fights. he looked very similar to Beterbiev...who also doesn't get his flowers on his footwork and boxing abilities.

Footwork is one of those things. Philosophically many go by the notion if it ain't broke don't fix it. Certainly Louis was of this notion, his footwork allowed him to make sure during a 10 to 15 round boxing match he would get enough cracks at the apple, punches, to be successful. That's all he needed.

Probably the most interesting thing about listons approach to footwork is that he never felt it necessary to cut the ring. He worked off a line much like Pacquiao. Much like kickboxers Southeast Asia. A line is always the shortest distance between two points. Liston had enough reach on his jab that he was always in position to attack off his fighting line.

He virtually never needed to try to cut the other fighter off in the ring. So we have a guy who is perhaps arguably one of, if not the premier finisher in the heavyweight division, who did not cut the ring!

Actually funny thing is a lot of pressure fighters, even if Liston was not a pressure fighter, use a similar approach.

[_Rexy_]

A detached retina doesn't mean he took a beating. That is usually a one punch injury.

Well, it was a 9 round fight that Martin was dropped in, and was down in the cards. Guess I assumed it was more than one punch?

Plus, there's footage on youtube lol Martin was eating that jab all night. (KD is at 3:27)

[them_apples]

Four tuneups in a row though?

This is absurd though. He cant just snap his fingers and get a world title fight. He has to stay busy. We cant act like rocky was some superstar on his come up. He was written off longer than most. He’s actually so nails he basically saw an oppourtunity out and took boxing to its limits, figuring he could beat anyone. Then once he had money stopped at the very top. Knowing he couldn’t live a life with a loss - he did the smart thing and hung them up at his very peak.

[Ivich]

Footwork is one of those things. Philosophically many go by the notion if it ain't broke don't fix it. Certainly Louis was of this notion, his footwork allowed him to make sure during a 10 to 15 round boxing match he would get enough cracks at the apple, punches, to be successful. That's all he needed.

Probably the most interesting thing about listons approach to footwork is that he never felt it necessary to cut the ring. He worked off a line much like Pacquiao. Much like kickboxers Southeast Asia. A line is always the shortest distance between two points. Liston had enough reach on his jab that he was always in position to attack off his fighting line.

He virtually never needed to try to cut the other fighter off in the ring. So we have a guy who is perhaps arguably one of, if not the premier finisher in the heavyweight division, who did not cut the ring!

Actually funny thing is a lot of pressure fighters, even if Liston was not a pressure fighter, use a similar approach.

Archie Moore said Liston scored so many early ko's he never learned to cut off the ring.

[Ivich]

yes Turner was Marciano- centric.

I have heard eyebrow raising things from all sorts... Neil Degrasse, a native New Yorker homeboy, very intelligent guy... says some of the ******est things (not even contentious!)... I actually work hard to banish them from my brain, lol, so its hard to give examples. But the guy is very smart (Not brilliant imo).

If a scientist can get away with it? A boxing trainer should get a few passes as well lol. Turner trained Holyfield brilliantly and had some other guys he worked with very well. I like Turner. I take it for granted that he employs hyperbole... knowingly on some of his more absurd opinions. I could be wrong on that account.

I think you might have a list of very silly things along with some strong opinions that Turner might be entitled to. I mean, pads could be something a trainer thinks is a waste of time... they may have their reasons, The Ward Mayweather and KLitsko statements are indeed contentious and downright silly.

While I like Turner, the real respect I have for him, and usually reserved for guys that were around for Tyson, and had actually seen JJ, Dempsey and Louis fight... (like a rare solar event there was a generation of trainers that had started young and hung in the game!) was the wealth of empirical knowledge they could share. Now as you have intimated, this knowledge and experience is analogous to a decent thrift store where one often has to go through bins of crap to find something special... But I have found things like very expensive kitchen knives, etc. All these guys tell tall tales, but now and then you get some real gems from guys who knew some of the great fighters we talk about.

When I used to get various martial arts students wanting to study they often had the most absurd understanding of martial arts, mixed with silly things and commercialized tripe stuffed into their proverbial brains. One day it hit me... How did I start? What did I believe when I went into my first class? These absurdities managed, at times, to bring a student to the right place. So even the trainers that are absurd, ridiculous... They can be a way for a fighter to find a trainer who is talented and able.

PS edit: Should have indicated that we "did" get some real gems from this generation of trainers, all of whom have left us for that great ring in the sky.

Don Turner, Evander Holyfield’s trainer, rejected having cut man Ace Marotta in Holyfield’s corner for last Friday night’s heavyweight championship fight against Michael Moorer.

“Cut men are the biggest scam in boxing,” Turner told Ron Borges of the Boston Globe. “These guys fly in and they eat like they’re going to the electric chair and you know what? The fighter pays.”

As it turned out, Holyfield suffered a deep cut over his left eye in the second round and, without an established cut man, bled much of the rest of the fight. Also, much of Turner’s time between rounds was spent working on the cut instead of advising Holyfield, who lost a majority decision.
I don't call that brilliant training.

[Willow The Wisp]

Eddie Machen, Zora Foley, Cleveland Williams and Nino Valdez, who never wore a title belt, were all vastly better fighters than the majority of non-lineal title holders in history. 4 of the best heavyweights who never won the title.