Sonny Liston vs Marciano resume comparison

[automaton89]

The fact that Liston annihilated Patterson twice is a negative for Sonny?
Did
DeJohn
Bethea
Folley
Harris
Valdes
Summerlin
Williams x2
Machen
Try to fight , or did they all just cave in?

Machen got slaughtered by Johansson in one round

[Ivich]

Machen got slaughtered by Johansson in one round

And Ingo reneged on the rematch.
Dokes stopped Weaver in 1 round but was held to a draw in the rematch. Patterson was stopped by Ingo in3 rds what happened in the rematch?
Machen ran away from Liston all night, and never tried to win.
You have no point.

[them_apples]

And Ingo reneged on the rematch.
Dokes stopped Weaver in 1 round but was held to a draw in the rematch. Patterson was stopped by Ingo in3 rds what happened in the rematch?
Machen ran away from Liston all night, and never tried to win.
You have no point.

This is true, but remember to apply the same fairness to Marciano. His biggest and only issue was getting close to you with those short arms.

this is why I stress you actually watch his fights with a close eye. Marciano had to develop strategies to close the gap on his oponents - who can’t to anything in close with him as he swarms them.

all 3 moore, walcott and charles opted to try and stay away, catch him coming in. Even Louis tried to do this, for the first and only time in his career.

I really doubt Liston is going to be capable of doing this. His long arms will be useless inside and he’s proven not to be the toughest guy around if we take a glance at his resume. He’s got a quittage on his record and a few stoppage losses. Marciano has non.

This is against different oponents - but factor in he did fight with his nose hanging off his face with apparently no concern.

[Ivich]

This is true, but remember to apply the same fairness to Marciano. His biggest and only issue was getting close to you with those short arms.

this is why I stress you actually watch his fights with a close eye. Marciano had to develop strategies to close the gap on his oponents - who canât to anything in close with him as he swarms them.

all 3 moore, walcott and charles opted to try and stay away, catch him coming in. Even Louis tried to do this, for the first and only time in his career.

I really doubt Liston is going to be capable of doing this. His long arms will be useless inside and heâs proven not to be the toughest guy around if we take a glance at his resume. Heâs got a quittage on his record and a few stoppage losses. Marciano has non.

This is against different oponents - but factor in he did fight with his nose hanging off his face with apparently no concern.

I've seen every Marciano fight that is available,and began watching them before you were born.
At long range Liston murders Marciano,at close range he uppercuts him and overpowers him.
"Nobody beats Liston by coming into him." Cus D'Amato
If Liston could pick any style to fight, a short, slow, come forward ,swarmer ,who cut easily would be his first choice.

[billeau2]

Listons wins over Patterson are his most memorable wins. Immediately after he fights Ali.

Patterson can only fight one way, his style was made to lose vs Liston. When you are light and fast you gotta stick and move.

I know about the shoulder. and the drug issues. My question is why does Marciano get written off when on paper he proved a lot more.

I think there are many heavyweights who we can't look at the competition to know how good they were. Quite simply liston is one of them. It's all in the film though. Liston was a tactical marvel. I rank him very highly, may have been the best finisher heavyweight ever. He moved methodically, he used distance and timing very very well. He was mean, he could hit really solid may have been one of the hardest punches for all we know. Just didn't have a weakness.

The Ali fights deserve to be part of liston's judgment Day but I do think his age, the possibility that there was funny stuff going on has to be considered in this case.

Marciano was a very rare bird. Because he had no real natural talent he had to develop a method and a will of iron I could never count him out because of that. He may not be one of the best heavyweights but always in the back of my mind is a little voice that says he should have never been able to beat anybody lol.

[billeau2]

This is true, but remember to apply the same fairness to Marciano. His biggest and only issue was getting close to you with those short arms.

this is why I stress you actually watch his fights with a close eye. Marciano had to develop strategies to close the gap on his oponents - who canât to anything in close with him as he swarms them.

all 3 moore, walcott and charles opted to try and stay away, catch him coming in. Even Louis tried to do this, for the first and only time in his career.

I really doubt Liston is going to be capable of doing this. His long arms will be useless inside and heâs proven not to be the toughest guy around if we take a glance at his resume. Heâs got a quittage on his record and a few stoppage losses. Marciano has non.

This is against different oponents - but factor in he did fight with his nose hanging off his face with apparently no concern.

Marciano had his ways. He used head movement sparingly, instead relying on a perpetual crouch. He could leap into an opponent to offset the need to step in past where the opponent could use reach. He found a method of hitting that was physiologically excellent, because it took advantage of gravity and our structure. And he realized that anyone could be excellent at attacking... unless someone made them have to move perpetually! People often forget the consequences of this last one... Mike Tyson could KO Marciano, like he could KO Holyfield... HOWEVER, when Holly pushed forward on Tyson, making him off balance, unlike previous men who would back off, Tyson lost his power and could KO nobody.

Watch this fight and one will see that Tyson hits Holly, it just does not have the power because he is being pressured! marciano lived by this tactic and probably not coincidentally, Don Turner thought Marciano was he best ever, just happens to be Holyfield's trainer for the Tyson fight, and uses an approach Marciano lived by! There are no accidents and Holly showed us exactly why marciano could win fights people thought were impossible for him to win.

[Ivich]

Marciano had his ways. He used head movement sparingly, instead relying on a perpetual crouch. He could leap into an opponent to offset the need to step in past where the opponent could use reach. He found a method of hitting that was physiologically excellent, because it took advantage of gravity and our structure. And he realized that anyone could be excellent at attacking... unless someone made them have to move perpetually! People often forget the consequences of this last one... Mike Tyson could KO Marciano, like he could KO Holyfield... HOWEVER, when Holly pushed forward on Tyson, making him off balance, unlike previous men who would back off, Tyson lost his power and could KO nobody.

Watch this fight and one will see that Tyson hits Holly, it just does not have the power because he is being pressured! marciano lived by this tactic and probably not coincidentally, Don Turner thought Marciano was he best ever, just happens to be Holyfield's trainer for the Tyson fight, and uses an approach Marciano lived by! There are no accidents and Holly showed us exactly why marciano could win fights people thought were impossible for him to win.

Don Turner's god is Marciano.I am not a fan of Turner, among his more contentious statements are;

"Ward and Mayweather would just be 6 round fighters back in my day!
"Hitting the pads is a waste of time"
"I learned from Charley Goldman" ,Goldman used to use big sparring gloves put on back wards for Marciano to hit.
"Cut men are a con and a waste of money".He convinced Holyfield of this and when Evander was cut he couldn't stop the bleeding.
"Marciano could beat both Klits on the same night."
Mr Turner is imo, full of it.
Pressure Liston and Foreman, and you wont hear the man count ten,to paraphrase John Wayne in the Quiet Man.
The only fights I can think of when Marciano was not the favourite to win were against Layne and Louis.

[billeau2]

Don Turner's god is Marciano.I am not a fan of Turner, among his more contentious statements are;

"Ward and Mayweather would just be 6 round fighters back in my day!
"Hitting the pads is a waste of time"
"I learned from Charley Goldman" ,Goldman used to use big sparring gloves put on back wards for Marciano to hit.
"Cut men are a con and a waste of money".He convinced Holyfield of this and when Evander was cut he couldn't stop the bleeding.
"Marciano could beat both Klits on the same night."
Mr Turner is imo, full of it.
Pressure Liston and Foreman, and you wont hear the man count ten,to paraphrase John Wayne in the Quiet Man.
The only fights I can think of when Marciano was not the favourite to win were against Layne and Louis.

yes Turner was Marciano- centric.

I have heard eyebrow raising things from all sorts... Neil Degrasse, a native New Yorker homeboy, very intelligent guy... says some of the ******est things (not even contentious!)... I actually work hard to banish them from my brain, lol, so its hard to give examples. But the guy is very smart (Not brilliant imo).

If a scientist can get away with it? A boxing trainer should get a few passes as well lol. Turner trained Holyfield brilliantly and had some other guys he worked with very well. I like Turner. I take it for granted that he employs hyperbole... knowingly on some of his more absurd opinions. I could be wrong on that account.

I think you might have a list of very silly things along with some strong opinions that Turner might be entitled to. I mean, pads could be something a trainer thinks is a waste of time... they may have their reasons, The Ward Mayweather and KLitsko statements are indeed contentious and downright silly.

While I like Turner, the real respect I have for him, and usually reserved for guys that were around for Tyson, and had actually seen JJ, Dempsey and Louis fight... (like a rare solar event there was a generation of trainers that had started young and hung in the game!) was the wealth of empirical knowledge they could share. Now as you have intimated, this knowledge and experience is analogous to a decent thrift store where one often has to go through bins of crap to find something special... But I have found things like very expensive kitchen knives, etc. All these guys tell tall tales, but now and then you get some real gems from guys who knew some of the great fighters we talk about.

When I used to get various martial arts students wanting to study they often had the most absurd understanding of martial arts, mixed with silly things and commercialized tripe stuffed into their proverbial brains. One day it hit me... How did I start? What did I believe when I went into my first class? These absurdities managed, at times, to bring a student to the right place. So even the trainers that are absurd, ridiculous... They can be a way for a fighter to find a trainer who is talented and able.

PS edit: Should have indicated that we "did" get some real gems from this generation of trainers, all of whom have left us for that great ring in the sky.

[Ivich]

yes Turner was Marciano- centric.

I have heard eyebrow raising things from all sorts... Neil Degrasse, a native New Yorker homeboy, very intelligent guy... says some of the ******est things (not even contentious!)... I actually work hard to banish them from my brain, lol, so its hard to give examples. But the guy is very smart (Not brilliant imo).

If a scientist can get away with it? A boxing trainer should get a few passes as well lol. Turner trained Holyfield brilliantly and had some other guys he worked with very well. I like Turner. I take it for granted that he employs hyperbole... knowingly on some of his more absurd opinions. I could be wrong on that account.

I think you might have a list of very silly things along with some strong opinions that Turner might be entitled to. I mean, pads could be something a trainer thinks is a waste of time... they may have their reasons, The Ward Mayweather and KLitsko statements are indeed contentious and downright silly.

While I like Turner, the real respect I have for him, and usually reserved for guys that were around for Tyson, and had actually seen JJ, Dempsey and Louis fight... (like a rare solar event there was a generation of trainers that had started young and hung in the game!) was the wealth of empirical knowledge they could share. Now as you have intimated, this knowledge and experience is analogous to a decent thrift store where one often has to go through bins of crap to find something special... But I have found things like very expensive kitchen knives, etc. All these guys tell tall tales, but now and then you get some real gems from guys who knew some of the great fighters we talk about.

When I used to get various martial arts students wanting to study they often had the most absurd understanding of martial arts, mixed with silly things and commercialized tripe stuffed into their proverbial brains. One day it hit me... How did I start? What did I believe when I went into my first class? These absurdities managed, at times, to bring a student to the right place. So even the trainers that are absurd, ridiculous... They can be a way for a fighter to find a trainer who is talented and able.

PS edit: Should have indicated that we "did" get some real gems from this generation of trainers, all of whom have left us for that great ring in the sky.

Turner was an indifferent lhvy who claimed he once sparred with Sugar Ray,maybe he did,but he was originally known for being at the top of the stairs and taking a buck off of anyone who wanted to watch the sparring in Stillman's Gym. BY the time he worked with Holyfield and Holmes there was nothing he could teach them ,he was just a glorified bucket carrier to them imo.And,if you look closely into his CV in which he claims to have trained so many champs he is often listed as "assistant trainer",a euphemism for water bottle carrier?

[billeau2]

Turner was an indifferent lhvy who claimed he once sparred with Sugar Ray,maybe he did,but he was originally known for being at the top of the stairs and taking a buck off of anyone who wanted to watch the sparring in Stillman's Gym. BY the time he worked with Holyfield and Holmes there was nothing he could teach them ,he was just a glorified bucket carrier to them imo.And,if you look closely into his CV in which he claims to have trained so many champs he is often listed as "assistant trainer",a euphemism for water bottle carrier?

Every one is entitled to their opinion. I judge him from the work I've seen that I'm impressed with. I don't really focus on other aspects . I wouldn't claim he's a moral paragon, someone who is universally recognized as a great trainer. I would claim the way he trained Holly for that fight was very intelligent.