What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

[them_apples]

Everything is easier if you are smaller. The big man has an advantage (given he knows how to punch) in power, but he needs you to sit still to land a good punch. Even if he hits the small guy, if its not a good punch the small guy will take it.

this is why historically, and only up until recently - the best heavies have floated around 190-215 lbs. because they had size but weren’t giving up so much in the realm of stamina, speed, agility and even power.

even outside of size, build is just as important - as well as training habits.

being massive is just one small factor, there is 0 evidence of it actually being a sole benefitting factor - and I think today its just a result of having NO good trainers. These guys bulk because they actually don’t know anything about boxing anymore. They train completely wrong.

don’t you find it odd that the 2 best boxers of our gen mostly trained oldschool? They wouldn’t cut 20 lbs, they would come in on weight. They did lots of roadwork and were never blown up. They beat men much larger than themselves. These were anomalies though and stood out among all the subpar fighters in their division.

Boxing is not bodybuilding. Its not powerlifting. No its a skill sport, its much closer to dancing.

[Marchegiano]

Have you actually read and understood the title of this thread?

What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

It refers to the small heavies and asked what evidence is there that they would be too small to compete today?
It does not ask which eras where too small does it?
Anyway I have given the evidence NONE under 200lbs have successfully contested for the title over the last 20 years.

More proof is the establishing of the Cruiserweight division to bridge the gap between175lbs light heavies and 230 /250lbs heavyweights,the reason being heavyweights have developed to be so big that their size makes it impossible for a Light heavy to be competitive with one!

Anyone think Tommy Loughran wasn't twice as skilled as Carnera yet he lost to him?

The reason he lost is that at under 6ft and only186lbs he could not give 86lbs to Primo who knew how to use his weight to exhaust the smaller man

A class man under 200lbs CAN beat a third rater who is considerably bigger than him ,as Fitzsimmons did when he beat Dunkhorst,BUT he could not do so when he faced a quality heavyweight inJeffries who outweighed him by over 40lbs!

BUT he couldn't replicate that feat that against Wlad because Wlad WAS good, and he has mastered the art of leaning all over smaller men ,it isn't pretty to watch ,but it is effective.

For some one who prides himself on his wisdom and mental acumen, and loses no opportunity to mention how clever he is ,you are remarkably obtuse.

I suppose there is some comfort to be found in you jumping on every post I make,even to the extent of answering questions directed to others,and at one point arguing with Slug in the mistaken belief it was me following me around likea dog who has lost his master.lol

The crumb of comfort would be that at least you are not boring the **** out of everyone talking about mythical gladiators and boxers from way back when whom nobody but yourself has the slightest interest in!

Small mercies!

You have boxrec. Go ahead. When has any recorded HW fight ever featured anyone below the CW limit since 04?

squirming and worming won't help you.

[Marchegiano]

Let me be more direct. Just because you've been misinforming posters for years about the lack of a minimum in the HW division doesn't mean you were ever right, you are wrong. That's why no one breaks the minimum and why there are fighters right at the minimum. Regardless of if you mean the 200 pound era or the 190 pound era.


There are no HWs under 200 because under 200 is CW.

Accept this.

[Marchegiano]

Can you tell me when the last time anyone fought in a sanctioned HW fight without weighing above the CW limit?

[Ivich]

Can you tell me when the last time anyone fought in a sanctioned HW fight without weighing above the CW limit?

That would be 2003. Ruiz v Jones WBA title 21years ago ,
Can you tell me of any rule in existence that precludes a boxer under,or on the Cruiserweight limit challenging for the heavyweight title?
I'll save you looking.There is NONE.
Thanks for proving my point!

[Ivich]

Let me be more direct. Just because you've been misinforming posters for years about the lack of a minimum in the HW division doesn't mean you were ever right, you are wrong. That's why no one breaks the minimum and why there are fighters right at the minimum. Regardless of if you mean the 200 pound era or the 190 pound era.


There are no HWs under 200 because under 200 is CW.

Accept this.

I have never mentioned the lack of a minimum weight in the HW division and I challenge you to provide a quote of mine to the contrary.

THERE IS NO MINIMUM WEIGHT A FIGHTER MUST ATTAIN TO FIGHT AT HEAVYWEIGHT.Fact.

You keep on wriggling, trying to get around the fact that nobody under 200lbs has challenged for the heavyweight title in the last 20 years,despite the fact that there is;
NO RULE PREVENTING THEM FROM DOING SO.Fact
If you ever had any credibility you sure haven't now,not since you hitched your wagon to this thread thinking you saw an opportunity to score points off of me.
All you have done is comprehensively mugged yourself and the laughably enjoyable part of it is you have done so with such an unrelenting gusto,in the totally misguided belief that you were winning !
Poor Old Margarino! Glaukos The Hammer isn't wearing any clothes! LOL

[Ivich]

Everything is easier if you are smaller. The big man has an advantage (given he knows how to punch) in power, but he needs you to sit still to land a good punch. Even if he hits the small guy, if its not a good punch the small guy will take it.

this is why historically, and only up until recently - the best heavies have floated around 190-215 lbs. because they had size but werenâÃÂÃÂt giving up so much in the realm of stamina, speed, agility and even power.

even outside of size, build is just as important - as well as training habits.

being massive is just one small factor, there is 0 evidence of it actually being a sole benefitting factor - and I think today its just a result of having NO good trainers. These guys bulk because they actually donâÃÂÃÂt know anything about boxing anymore. They train completely wrong.

donâÃÂÃÂt you find it odd that the 2 best boxers of our gen mostly trained oldschool? They wouldnâÃÂÃÂt cut 20 lbs, they would come in on weight. They did lots of roadwork and were never blown up. They beat men much larger than themselves. These were anomalies though and stood out among all the subpar fighters in their division.

Boxing is not bodybuilding. Its not powerlifting. No its a skill sport, its much closer to dancing.

So all bigger men are slower than smaller men? All heavies that bulk up in weight do so because they don't know anything about boxing?
All other things being equal ,a good big un usually beats a good little un.

[Ivich]

Smaller guys get better gas bro, dead on and ain't no arguing to be had about it. Y'all can do research if you like, it's not even a controversial statement. Just because Ivich made it a big deal doesn't mean it is.


There is a reason why the average human being gets smaller as you go back in time and have less technology available to you. That reason is survivability through stamina. period.


Early man distance hunts. It's how we got to be everywhere. What other mammals are everywhere? Exactly. We have a range more like a marine creature because we have a stamina more like a marine creature and if stripped of our technology we use that stamina to feed ourselves.

Tribesman still do it.

The go-to means of hunting game for mankind is not sitting and waiting. It is not baiting and watching. It is walking down the creature until it has tired itself out and lies there too exhausted to fight back. This is man's special talent as a species. Not our intelligence, that comes after. Our ability to walk down a deer, bison, wildebeest, until it is so tired it no longer runs. I'm talking about walking nations' distances for food.


Not even a controversy. Biology, history, everyone agrees.


Conversely there is no mystery to the size of the average man. We could always get this size, these genes have always been here and have always popped up. The reason more men alive today crack 6 foot than ever is because they're alive now. 3k years ago it's a death sentence and they're lucky to seen teen years.



Is there an argument for big men being better than they used to be? Sure is. It is not ****ing evolution, does not require the denial of biology, and it actually fits the history of divisions.




To be very clear here. Ivich was too much of a prick for me to even get to the point where there was any common ground. I was always leading up to this. My point was never Ivich is wrong and I know it. My point was Ivich is so bias he can't actually handle this conversation and would never admit to the possibility of being wrong.


Stamina, your heart, look into it, there are plenty of biological benefits to being smaller.


The scheduled end of a boxing contest, AKA, the ****ing rules, are not handling the main benefits of sizes equally are they?


If a big man's main benefit is power and a punch can end a fight but a small man's benefit is stamina and stamina alone can not cause the end of the fight then the rules favor the large.

Which is why, when the rules were more favorable to smaller men, smaller men were successful, and as time is lessened so grows the size of the fighters.





Why 193 instead of 160? Because it ends in 36 mins no matter what. If it ended when Roy had John too tired to call the bell then maybe it goes 20 rounds and maybe Roy shows up light.









Ivich you're a ****** old man who got exposed. You been on my **** for years. You deserved this.

The reason the human race has gotten bigger is.

IMPROVED NUTRITIONAND THE READY AVAILABILITY OF FOOD.

s://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-are-we-getting-taller.

Humans are getting taller; they're also fatter than ever and live longer than at any time in history. And all of these changes have occurred in the past 100 years, scientists say.

So is evolution via natural selection at play here? Not in the sense of actual genetic changes, as one century is not enough time for such changes to occur, according to researchers.
Most of the transformations that occur within such a short time period "are simply the developmental responses of organisms to changed conditions," such as differences in nutrition, food distribution, health care and hygiene practices, said Stephen Stearns, a professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at Yale University. [10 Things That Make Humans Special]


How humans have changed in height in the last 100 years | CNN.
Since the vast majority of the worlds population has not hunted for a few centuries ,stamina is not a factor in this equation whatsoever,and all your attempts to interject your cod" science," into the mix just does not wash.

The reason people are larger and live longer is simply because they are ,
1. Nutrionally better fed.
2. Food is more easily available.
3. They have better health care.
These facts are not only widely understood and accepted by nutritional scientists ,but a matter of common knowledge among laymen.

[Marchegiano]

That would be 2003. Ruiz v Jones WBA title 21years ago ,
Can you tell me of any rule in existence that precludes a boxer under,or on the Cruiserweight limit challenging for the heavyweight title?
I'll save you looking.There is NONE.
Thanks for proving my point!

The limit was 190.

[Marchegiano]

I have never mentioned the lack of a minimum weight in the HW division and I challenge you to provide a quote of mine to the contrary.

THERE IS NO MINIMUM WEIGHT A FIGHTER MUST ATTAIN TO FIGHT AT HEAVYWEIGHT.Fact.

You keep on wriggling, trying to get around the fact that nobody under 200lbs has challenged for the heavyweight title in the last 20 years,despite the fact that there is;
NO RULE PREVENTING THEM FROM DOING SO.Fact
If you ever had any credibility you sure haven't now,not since you hitched your wagon to this thread thinking you saw an opportunity to score points off of me.
All you have done is comprehensively mugged yourself and the laughably enjoyable part of it is you have done so with such an unrelenting gusto,in the totally misguided belief that you were winning !
Poor Old Margarino! Glaukos The Hammer isn't wearing any clothes! LOL

Oh? They just happen to fight exclusively a few pounds above that minimum out of chance? And by chance when the minimum became 200, so to went the last 190+ HW?

Is that what you're telling me?

There is a minimum, it's the maximum of the CW division. That's why no one has broken the minimum since CW's existence.