What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

[Ivich]

This is what I am saying, we have boatloads of evidence that this weight thing is a gimmick and it entirely depends on the boxer himself. We have almost no evidence that fighters are âtoo bigâ now. Nothing at all. We donât even have examples that might coincide with what Ivich is claiming. Even in the event where we have pitted bigger fighters again smaller fighters of similar skill, the result is still hard to predict. For example the Holyfield fight with Lewis in 99. Holyfield is not only on the slide and Lewis is prime, he is a former light heavy - and even with bulk is considerably smaller than Lewis. Lewis beat him but probably could have lost one of them as well. Lewis was in a better point in his career, is a bigger man and for all intents and purposes they are considered relatively close in skill level.

Even in this fight, Lewis did not show he could dominate Holyfield or even win a convincing decision.

Can we find even 1 fight where size played a role?

we canât even use Foreman vs Frazier because while Foreman was much stronger and bigger than Joe, they weighed nearly the same when they fought.

can we find ONE example?

its clear this debate has run dry for me. Either you are willfully ignorant or you just like arguing for the sake of arguing.

what Marchegano is saying is correct. I never thought of it but the cruiserweight division didnât even exist back then so they just fought at heavyweight. And even today we have cruisers who move up and yes win titles.

Ivich is saying the reason they can win these titles is because of the 10-15 lbs they put on. This is absurd and I an willing to bet the weight they put on actually lessens their chances by being more hittable.

FRAZIERS BEST WEIGHT WAS 205LBS AT 5FT 11IN, ALL HE DID AGAINST FOREMAN WAS ADD 9LBS OF FAT TO HIS FRAME .
Fights in which size played a role.
Monzon v Napoles.
Canelo v Khan
Valuev v Ruiz
Wlad vMormeck
Louis v Conn
Carnera v Loughran
Dempsey v Carpentier
Johnson v Willard
Maxim v Robinson
Griffith v Charnley
Golvkin v Brook
Jeffries v Fitzsimmons 1
Jeffries v Fitzsimmons 2
Jeffries v Sharkey 1
Jeffries v Sharkey 2
Jeffries v Corbett1
Jeffries v Corbett2
Johnson v Burns
Johnson V Ketchel
Sharkey v Delaney
Sharkey v Loughran 1
Schmeling v Walker
Moore v Olson
Frazier v Foster
Ali v Foster
Liston v Patterson 1
Liston v Patterson2
Wlad v Haye
Wlad v Mormeck
Bowe v Holyfield1
Bowe v Holyfield 3
Bowe v Hide
Vitali v Hide
Fury v Wilder3
Fullmer v Paret
Golovkin v Brook

[Ivich]

In bolded is not the answer though. This was a choice made to add a few more titles to the division. I donĂ¢ĂÂĂÂt recall this having anything to do with heavies being too light. In fact they added many new weight classes. It just meant more champions and title fights to sell to the masses.

the bulking they do actually has no merit. It doesnâÂÂt even make any sense - they just seem to do it. The small mans strengths are his speed and stamina. By them putting on weight like michelen man just makes it worse for them by sapping their advantages.

oh ya and one more thing, you deem the big guys today as better big heavies than the past. Well the small guys of the past were certainly better then the small guys today. Is cruiserweight is where you think all those guys hang out - why do we have have such ****ty cruiserweights?

NO No And No Again !They did NOT just add more titles, they added a totally new and separate weight class between lightheavy and heavy and the reason ,which they stated at the time and you can easily look this up, was because,the gulf in weight between the 175pound light heavyweights and the heavyweights had grown too vast.

Cruiserweight or Junior Heavyweight - First established by the WBC in 1979 with a limit of 190 lb / 86.18 kg, to fit smaller heavyweights who couldn’t compete with the growing size of the other fighters in the division. The first sanctioned cruiserweight world champion fight was between Marvin Camel and Mate Parlov for the new WBC Cruiserweight belt. However, with the first bout ending in a draw, it was the rematch in which Camel emerged victorious to become the first cruiserweight world champion.
THERE ARE PLENT Y MORE OF THESE IF YOU WANT TO LOOK FOR THEM.BUT I DONT THINK YOU WILL.

[Slugfester]

Ive been going to fights for the last 50 years,I've seen big guys out last smaller guys and vice versa.I have NEVER stated bigger men have as much stamina as smaller men,but I have seen smaller men driven to the point of exhaustion by much bigger men clinching and leaning on them.

Maxim V Robinson
Wlas v Mormeck
Wlad v Povetkin

"Its the vogue thing to do," is a palpable cop out, that in no way addresses the reason and we both know it.

Valuev was a talentless oaf whose only advantage WAS his size if he had been a normal sized heavyweight he would never have smelled a top ten ranking,let alone win a version of the title.

If you cannot win a debate by proving my opinions wrong,please don't put words in my mouth I've never spoken, it just smacks of sheer desperation on your part.

I've already stated Marciano had the capability of beating huge men with small talent such as Willard,Carnera ,and Valuev.so your attempt to attribute an opinion to me that I have never held is a dismal failure.

Now I've been polite in my replies to you here but, if you cannot control your emotions,stand by to repel boarders!

Because I am more than capable of holding my own trading insults with posters who have anger management problems like you and Margarino.

You're a laugh. I have already beaten your ass, churl. You are an alligator with no teeth.

Don't worry, everyone can now see I was right a year ago when I said you were just as responsible as Z for all that fighting.

You have proven me right consistently. You are now in a three front war, idiot. No one else does that, just you. If you are not fighting and trying to express your superiority you will not be happy. You must be overjoyed right now participating in three wars at once.

images.png

Here you are with a list of contenders from the 1920s, ready to let the boys have it. Oh, God, protect me.

[Willie Pep 229]

"There was never an era provided in which the smaller end of the weight division was not represented at the highest end of the ranking."
The above has never been part of the argument,not in the title and NOT in my replies.
The only poster who has argued about this is YOU ,The question posed by the OP WAS and REMAINS.

What Evidence Do We Have That Heavyweights Were Too Small In The Past To Compete Today?
The answer to this is the introduction of the Cruiserweight division and the fact that nobody under 200lbs has challenged for the heavyweight title for the last twenty years ,despite there being nothing in the rules to stop them!

Every student of Boxing is aware that in the past, before the advent of the bigger heavies in any number,smaller men competed successfully at heavyweight.BUT they were NOT facing CLASS big men of the size of the giants of today on anything like a regular basis huge men who can both box and punch.
THIS SEEMS SO OBVIOUS.SO ASTONISHINGLY EASY TO GRASP .THAT I AM BEGINNING TO THINK YOU ARE TROLLING.
I have put the salient point in caps I don't now what else I can do to make this anymore easier to grasp.

IF YOU ARE STILL CONVINCED YOU ARE RIGHT AND WE ARE WRONG
WHY WAS THE CRUISERWEIGHT DIVISION INVENTED?
WHY HAS EVERY CRUISER WHO WAS COMPETED AT HEAVYWEIGHT ADDED WEIGHT TO HIS FRAME?
IF YOU ARE CORRECT IN STATING LIGHTER IS FASTER .LIGHTER MEANS MORE STAMINA.
WHY HAVE THEY DELIBERATELY DISREGARDED THIS AND ADDED WEIGHT?

I am in no way dis*****g your point regarding size but I wouldn't conclude that the sanctioning bodies created the CW division out of concern for fairness or even safety.

These corrupt guys wouldn't hesitate to pull a weight division out their ass if it means yet another title and sanctioning fee.

I am glad the bogus Super HW Title seems to have disappeared, that seemed like just another money grab.

I would say though that if we wanted to return to the sanity of the original eight weight classes with only one champion, we would need to expand that to nine classes and keep the CW division.

A 190 or 210 hundred pound division is today necessary. There are too many great fighters in that range for there not to be a champion among them. I suspect it might be an even more exciting division than the current HWs.

But then again I personally believe the best fights are in the LW/WW/MW divisions.

Instead of an XFL football league in the spring I would like to see a 210 pound limit American football league.

There are so many great athletes in that weight range that just aren't big enough to play in the NFL today and it is ashame that they don't get to participate at the professional level.

As fight fans I think we are blessed that we had the opportunity to watch Duran, SRL, and Marvelous Marvin compete. It is something football fans are denied.

Same with height in basketball. But screw them, it's their loss.

[Ivich]

I am in no way dis*****g your point regarding size but I wouldn't conclude that the sanctioning bodies created the CW division out of concern for fairness or even safety.

These corrupt guys wouldn't hesitate to pull a weight division out their ass if it means yet another title and sanctioning fee.

I am glad the bogus Super HW Title seems to have disappeared, that seemed like just another money grab.

I would say though that if we wanted to return to the sanity of the original eight weight classes with only one champion, we would need to expand that to nine classes and keep the CW division.

A 190 or 210 hundred pound division is today necessary. There are too many great fighters in that range for there not to be a champion among them. I suspect it might be an even more exciting division than the current HWs.

But then again I personally believe the best fights are in the LW/WW/MW divisions.

Instead of an XFL football league in the spring I would like to see a 210 pound limit American football league.

There are so many great athletes in that weight range that just aren't big enough to play in the NFL today and it is ashame that they don't get to participate at the professional level.

As fight fans I think we are blessed that we had the opportunity to watch Duran, SRL, and Marvelous Marvin compete. It is something football fans are denied.

Same with height in basketball. But screw them, it's their loss.

The reason the bogus superheavyweight class did not take off was because it was never necessary in the first place,whereas a cruiserweight division was!
The Super heavyweight division was floated in the 1930's after Carnera "ko'd" Sharkey and Schaff .
Max Baer at210lbs proved it was not needed when he sloppily massacred the Italian.

[Ivich]

You're a laugh. I have already beaten your ass, churl. You are an alligator with no teeth.

Don't worry, everyone can now see I was right a year ago when I said you were just as responsible as Z for all that fighting.

You have proven me right consistently. You are now in a three front war, idiot. No one else does that, just you. If you are not fighting and trying to express your superiority you will not be happy. You must be overjoyed right now participating in three wars at once.

images.png

Here you are with a list of contenders from the 1920s, ready to let the boys have it. Oh, God, protect me.

Twenty two out of the 36 I named off the top of my head are from the 50's onwards.
many of those are from the last 30 years
The reassuring thing for me ,if I ever needed any, is that two of the opposite camp are unbalanced,and irrational, emotionally unstable posters who carry grudges to absurd lengths,one believes .or purports to believe, that the only reason Cruisers and Light heavies have put on weigh to compete in the heavyweight division is because "it is the vogue ," and the other is a Marciano fan boy who believes Rocky knocks out
Wlad
Lewis
AJ
Fury
It is comforting to be in the opposite camp to posters of that ilk.
I should definitely be worried if I found I held the same opinions .


I see you are determined to proceed with your little vendetta,so be it.

[Ivich]

Been looking, can't see any evidence as to why guys fought below 200 but not below 190 when the limit was 190 and then fought above 200 exclusively when the limit was moved to 200.

You'd think if HW was excluded in some way from the weight divisions' normal limitations that'd get listed in some way. The lack of maximum is.

You'd likewise think if HW had no limitations you'd see a natural, slow, progression toward 200 rather than the abrupt change that comes with a rule change.







Why are their no successful HW under 200? Simply because the rules do not allow them to.



I don't even know that I'm right. I just know when pressed Ivich makes with sources and when he doesn't it's because he's made **** up.

There is no ruling requirement for a man to weigh over200lbs to challenge for the heavyweight crown.PROVE ME WRONG!

[Marchegiano]

There is no ruling requirement for a man to weigh over200lbs to challenge for the heavyweight crown.PROVE ME WRONG!

https://wbcboxing.com/en/know-the-boxing-divisions/


Already showed you this once.


Is the WBC wrong?



There are weight divisions. Those weight divisions are clearly defined. No one has broken the limits of those weight divisions, and the ONLY exception listed is the lack of maximum at heavyweight. Not a lack of minimum.

[Marchegiano]

Seems like everyone lists their HW division at 200+ except the WBC who lists at 224+.

WBO, IBF, WBA, no one says there is no minimum, everyone says you need to be 200 pounds or more to be a HW.


Just because you old ****ers said it a lot doesn't make it true.




You want be to believe there is nothing to prevent people from fighting below 200 when every body lists their division starting at 200 or better, none of them go out of their way to explain the listed HW minimum isn't real, and all of them do explain the exception at HW is its upper limit.


Every body has rules about fighers hitting the limits of a weight division. None of them have exceptions for HW except for the max at HW.


No human being has weighed below the minimum despite the minimum being pulled up.


But sure Ivich You're not wrong and stubborn and ******.





Just because old ****s like you and Z have circlejerked a lot doesn't make it anything more than a circle jerk.

[Ivich]

https://wbcboxing.com/en/know-the-boxing-divisions/


Already showed you this once.


Is the WBC wrong?



There are weight divisions. Those weight divisions are clearly defined. No one has broken the limits of those weight divisions, and the ONLY exception listed is the lack of maximum at heavyweight. Not a lack of minimum.

Yes those are the weight divisions.I boxed for nearly 20 years, I am fully aware of them.
NOW PRODUCE A RULING THAT SAYS NO BOXER UNDER 200LBS CAN CHALLENGE FOR THE HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE?

Either you have problems with reading comprehension, or you willfully misread and misrepresent what others type?

Which is it?

ps.Still think Marciano ko's Ali?