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What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

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  • Originally posted by thebrownbomber_ View Post

    Well marciano wasn’t really a true HW. Other great HWs like Louis, Liston, Ali, etx from before the 80s would easily starch AJ
    But none of those you named were 5'10 and 185lbs,with a 68in reach and, all of them were BIG enough to beat any sized heavyweight.simply because, at over 6ft and 200lbs plus, they were GOOD enough.
    Which totally supports my opinion.

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    • More reframing from a loser who can't make a point worth a ****

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

        Nobody has disputed this ,though Margarino seems convinced that I have denied it!

        Q. How many fighters smaller than him had more stamina than Harry Greb?


        However what exactly it has to do with the subject and title of the thread which is;


        What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

        Escapes me .

        The answer to the question posed by the original poster Apples is easily discerned;
        No fighter under 200lbs has been top ten ranked at heavyweight in the last 20 years!

        No fighter under 200lbs has challenged for that title in the last twenty years!

        Couldn't you at least use an example you have seen fight? Try figuring out what "on the whole means." Greb is an outlier, a bad example you made trying to wiggle away. You have now circuitously declared that larger men have as much stamina as the pipsqueaks, by virtue of your Greb comparison. Margarine turned out to be right it seems.

        Why has no 190 pounder been a top 10 heavy nigh on two decade? They all gained weight.

        Why? It's the vogue thing to do.

        Anyway they have their own division now, with another in Sulaiman's cooker, promoting further SDS (Size Derangement Syndrome). Jose has to love it.

        Marciano, Louis, Dempsey--their sleekness is one reason they will KO your boy Valuev, the biggest and slowest of them all. Even Marciano will seem like a cheetah in there with your guy.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Slugfester View Post

          Couldn't you at least use an example you have seen fight? Try figuring out what "on the whole means." Greb is an outlier, a bad example you made trying to wiggle away. You have now circuitously declared that larger men have as much stamina as the pipsqueaks, by virtue of your Greb comparison. Margarine turned out to be right it seems.

          Why has no 190 pounder been a top 10 heavy nigh on two decade? They all gained weight.

          Why? It's the vogue thing to do.

          Anyway they have their own division now, with another in Sulaiman's cooker, promoting further SDS (Size Derangement Syndrome). Jose has to love it.

          Marciano, Louis, Dempsey--their sleekness is one reason they will KO your boy Valuev, the biggest and slowest of them all. Even Marciano will seem like a cheetah in there with your guy.
          Ive been going to fights for the last 50 years,I've seen big guys out last smaller guys and vice versa.I have NEVER stated bigger men have as much stamina as smaller men,but I have seen smaller men driven to the point of exhaustion by much bigger men clinching and leaning on them.

          Maxim V Robinson
          Wlas v Mormeck
          Wlad v Povetkin

          "Its the vogue thing to do," is a palpable cop out, that in no way addresses the reason and we both know it.

          Valuev was a talentless oaf whose only advantage WAS his size if he had been a normal sized heavyweight he would never have smelled a top ten ranking,let alone win a version of the title.

          If you cannot win a debate by proving my opinions wrong,please don't put words in my mouth I've never spoken, it just smacks of sheer desperation on your part.

          I've already stated Marciano had the capability of beating huge men with small talent such as Willard,Carnera ,and Valuev.so your attempt to attribute an opinion to me that I have never held is a dismal failure.

          Now I've been polite in my replies to you here but, if you cannot control your emotions,stand by to repel boarders!

          Because I am more than capable of holding my own trading insults with posters who have anger management problems like you and Margarino.
          Last edited by Ivich; 04-11-2024, 08:03 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ivich View Post
            Ive been going to fights for the last 50 years,I've seen big guys out last smaller guys and vice versa.I have NEVER stated bigger men have as much stamina as smaller men,but I have seen smaller men driven to the point of exhaustion by much bigger men clinching and leaning on them.

            Maxim V Robinson
            Wlas v Mormeck
            Wlad v Povetkin

            "Its the vogue thing to do," is a palpable cop out, that in no way addresses the reason and we both know it.

            Valuev was a talentless oaf whose only advantage WAS his size if he had been a normal sized heavyweight he would never have smelled a top ten ranking,let alone win a version of the title.

            If you cannot win a debate by proving my opinions wrong,please don't put words in my mouth I've never spoken, it just smacks of sheer desperation on your part.

            I've already stated Marciano had the capability of beating huge men with small talent such as Willard,Carnera ,and Valuev.so your attempt to attribute an opinion to me that I have never held is a dismal failure.

            Now I've been polite in my replies to you here but, if you cannot control your emotions,stand by to repel boarders!

            Because I am more than capable of holding my own trading insults with posters who have anger management problems like you and Margarino.
            Nah bud, yer a ****. If you were capable of it you'd sit here instead of running around the forum showing your ass.


            Wriggle was right. I accused you of worm behavior too. Isn't that interesting? You get the same exact criticism from others. Hmm.


            How is it I was able to not only insult you but call out the insults that follow you? Gee, I wonder




            Being a stubborn makes you nothing but stubborn.

            Running around reframing every conversation you lose makes you nothing but a worm.

            Avoiding because you think what I am stating is contrary to what you have stated makes you nothing but a coward.


            These criticisms follow you. Not me. The criticism that you give me. Has anyone in this thread called me a looney but you? Interesting. How about the thread I caught Rockin' making fun of your softass for being a soft ass? Anyone called me looney but you?





            There's your ****ing sign bud. You ain't **** but a cowardly stubborn worm.





            Still haven't enough balls to name an era.


            Comment


            • Originally posted by Slugfester View Post
              Sorry to be tardy. I have been sleeping a lot and watching a series to exhaustion. I knew I could come back to the donnybrook here anytime.

              Margarine indeed made a good point--one of the few to be had, and pulled a prize fish out of a dead lake with the stamina/weight duality.

              Forgive if it leads to my own question.

              Does that mean bantamweights have more stamina than middleweights?

              Well, yeah, methinks. On the whole BWs move around the ring more and faster than MWs. They are simply more active. What allows this? Their weight, no more no less. Smaller guys get better gas mileage.
              Smaller guys get better gas bro, dead on and ain't no arguing to be had about it. Y'all can do research if you like, it's not even a controversial statement. Just because Ivich made it a big deal doesn't mean it is.


              There is a reason why the average human being gets smaller as you go back in time and have less technology available to you. That reason is survivability through stamina. period.


              Early man distance hunts. It's how we got to be everywhere. What other mammals are everywhere? Exactly. We have a range more like a marine creature because we have a stamina more like a marine creature and if stripped of our technology we use that stamina to feed ourselves.

              Tribesman still do it.

              The go-to means of hunting game for mankind is not sitting and waiting. It is not baiting and watching. It is walking down the creature until it has tired itself out and lies there too exhausted to fight back. This is man's special talent as a species. Not our intelligence, that comes after. Our ability to walk down a deer, bison, wildebeest, until it is so tired it no longer runs. I'm talking about walking nations' distances for food.


              Not even a controversy. Biology, history, everyone agrees.


              Conversely there is no mystery to the size of the average man. We could always get this size, these genes have always been here and have always popped up. The reason more men alive today crack 6 foot than ever is because they're alive now. 3k years ago it's a death sentence and they're lucky to seen teen years.



              Is there an argument for big men being better than they used to be? Sure is. It is not ****ing evolution, does not require the denial of biology, and it actually fits the history of divisions.




              To be very clear here. Ivich was too much of a prick for me to even get to the point where there was any common ground. I was always leading up to this. My point was never Ivich is wrong and I know it. My point was Ivich is so bias he can't actually handle this conversation and would never admit to the possibility of being wrong.


              Stamina, your heart, look into it, there are plenty of biological benefits to being smaller.


              The scheduled end of a boxing contest, AKA, the ****ing rules, are not handling the main benefits of sizes equally are they?


              If a big man's main benefit is power and a punch can end a fight but a small man's benefit is stamina and stamina alone can not cause the end of the fight then the rules favor the large.

              Which is why, when the rules were more favorable to smaller men, smaller men were successful, and as time is lessened so grows the size of the fighters.





              Why 193 instead of 160? Because it ends in 36 mins no matter what. If it ended when Roy had John too tired to call the bell then maybe it goes 20 rounds and maybe Roy shows up light.









              Ivich you're a ****** old man who got exposed. You been on my **** for years. You deserved this.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

                The" smaller end of the division",your words,has struggled for the last 20 years.
                2004-2024
                DURING THAT TIME NOT A SINGLE FIGHTER WEIGHING UNDER 200LBS HAS BEEN TOP TEN RANKED IN THE HEAVYWEIGHT DIVISION


                WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU GLUCOSE?

                2004-2024 under 200 is Cruiserweight fella. I really don't know what you think your point is.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post


                  2004-2024 under 200 is Cruiserweight fella. I really don't know what you think your point is.
                  Anything to stop those Cruisers moving up and challenging for the heavyweight title?

                  Any of them ever done so without adding significant poundage?

                  Ask yourself why it was felt necessary to add Cruiserweight to the weight divisions?


                  You are beat all ends up, give it up ,you are just embarrassing yourself,like you did on Classic when you said Marciano ko's Ali! lol
                  Last edited by Ivich; 04-11-2024, 10:08 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

                    Anything to stop those Cruisers moving up and challenging for the heavyweight title?

                    Any of them ever done so without adding significant poundage?

                    Ask yourself why it was felt necessary to add Cruiserweight to the weight divisions?


                    You are beat all ends up, give it up ,you are just embarrassing yourself,like you did on Classic when you said Marciano ko's Ali! lol
                    I might very well be, but I'm gonna go ahead and do it.


                    Why do you pretend like this is a levels issue?

                    Have any HWs fought at HW weighing less than the HW minimum in the time frames you ask about? 2004-2024 or abouts?


                    Has any HW padded their record with a 190 in a HW fight?


                    It's almost like as if the sanctioning bodies do not sanction fights for fighters that do not meet their weight divisions.


                    We have seen some catch weights but they were called catch not heavy.


                    You got boxrec. Sit there all day and find me a sanctioned HW fight that features at least one fighter at a CW weight since 2004. Have fun.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Marchegiano View Post

                      Nah bud, yer a ****. If you were capable of it you'd sit here instead of running around the forum showing your ass.


                      Wriggle was right. I accused you of worm behavior too. Isn't that interesting? You get the same exact criticism from others. Hmm.


                      How is it I was able to not only insult you but call out the insults that follow you? Gee, I wonder




                      Being a stubborn makes you nothing but stubborn.

                      Running around reframing every conversation you lose makes you nothing but a worm.

                      Avoiding because you think what I am stating is contrary to what you have stated makes you nothing but a coward.


                      These criticisms follow you. Not me. The criticism that you give me. Has anyone in this thread called me a looney but you? Interesting. How about the thread I caught Rockin' making fun of your softass for being a soft ass? Anyone called me looney but you?





                      There's your ****ing sign bud. You ain't **** but a cowardly stubborn worm.





                      Still haven't enough balls to name an era.

                      Have you actually read and understood the title of this thread?

                      What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

                      ​It refers to the small heavies and asked what evidence is there that they would be too small to compete today?
                      It does not ask which eras where too small does it?
                      Anyway I have given the evidence NONE under 200lbs have successfully contested for the title over the last 20 years.

                      More proof is the establishing of the Cruiserweight division to bridge the gap between175lbs light heavies and 230 /250lbs heavyweights,the reason being heavyweights have developed to be so big that their size makes it impossible for a Light heavy to be competitive with one!

                      Anyone think Tommy Loughran wasn't twice as skilled as Carnera yet he lost to him?

                      The reason he lost is that at under 6ft and only186lbs he could not give 86lbs to Primo who knew how to use his weight to exhaust the smaller man

                      A class man under 200lbs CAN beat a third rater who is considerably bigger than him ,as Fitzsimmons did when he beat Dunkhorst,BUT he could not do so when he faced a quality heavyweight inJeffries who outweighed him by over 40lbs!

                      BUT he couldn't replicate that feat that against Wlad because Wlad WAS good, and he has mastered the art of leaning all over smaller men ,it isn't pretty to watch ,but it is effective.

                      For some one who prides himself on his wisdom and mental acumen, and loses no opportunity to mention how clever he is ,you are remarkably obtuse.

                      I suppose there is some comfort to be found in you jumping on every post I make,even to the extent of answering questions directed to others,and at one point arguing with Slug in the mistaken belief it was me following me around likea dog who has lost his master.lol

                      The crumb of comfort would be that at least you are not boring the **** out of everyone talking about mythical gladiators and boxers from way back when whom nobody but yourself has the slightest interest in!

                      Small mercies!

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