Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Slugfester;n32105675]

You have a lot of advice for what other people should do.. What is your advice to yourself? I just have to be curious.

I just did blame White racist America--for anything applicable and the whole color line, except I overlooked the two fights apparently signed for American soil. Australia is not applicable, as far as I know--excuse me for not being fully informed, if America made Australians cancel a fight.

Since you never have quite grasped it--People (including myself) do not come here to tiptoe around until you feel they are fully informed and are finally allowed to open their mouths and Wade In. They do and they should wade right in, with what they think they know. If wrong, they will probably be corrected.

I am never offended by a correction or a fact, except those gift wrapped with a bow snot.

You weren't supposed to be offended . White America wanted a White Heavyweight champion so ,after Johnson won the title a campaign to find a White Hope capable of beating him began,you know this everyone knows it.I'm not giving advice to anyone, I'm stating simple facts which are established common knowledge.Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette in NY twice the NYAC banned him from fighting there and even stopped an exhibition for charity he was about to do.Johnson accepted terms to defend against both McVey and Langford in Australia but the fights were pulled.History shows us that when his price was met Johnson was willing to fight anyone.
Posters here ,like on any forum will have varying degrees of knowledge on certain aspects of boxing,some will be up to speed on say the 1900's,some the 20's ,and so on,and some will have a broad, across the spectrum understanding of the game.All will give their opinions its a forum. I just stated a fact.For the record ,I consider myself an average poster,not the best,not the worst.

America didn't force Australia to cancel the Langford and McVey defences,Aussie public opinion and the Church turned against Johnson when he skipped bail,forcing McIntosh to cancel the fights and make a public statement in the press as to why.
You seem particularly thin skinned, I see nothing in my earlier post to offend you, nor was that my intention.If I did I apologise.

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32105243]

Still lying that Jeffries was willing to defend against a black man ,despite all the multitude of evidence to the contrary.

In September 1903 right after McVey kod Martin in1 round a promoter offered Jeffries $16,000 to defend against him.
For a poster who wasnt going to reply to my posts anymore you're doing okay.lol
Do us a favour top yourself!

I will reply to this when I have time, Sam McVey was a very green 19-20 year old kid when he Ko'd the string bean Martin in 1903. He had very few fights.

He then lost three fights in a row and gave up boxing in late 1904 and all of 1905. Jeffries then would destroy the 20 year old in-experienced kid. He did not deserve a shot.

Jeffries fought Jim Corbett in 1903! Let 's look at what he mad in that fight.

Gate receipts amounted to $62,340 from that fight. The fighters received 70% of the gate, with 75% going to the winner and 25% to the loser. Got it?!

Now please produce the link for that small press offer and remember that is only the purse, not Jeffries cut. Lots of fighter's have their manager make offers that are not economically feasible. I am getting bored mopping the floor with your face.

[Dr. Z]

Agreed. I have Ali as the greatest HW ever and noone has a resume with as many IBHOF wins as he has. Furthermore his societal impact ads lenghts to his accomplishments.

I'd like to see anyone argue for someone having a better resume than Ali.

Ali had the best resume. No one is saying he didn't. I am saying he was very fortunate to win with BS judging in the third Norton fight and the young fight. He officially should have lost 7 times. Furthermore he was shall we say lucky the Lyle fight was stopped a tad early. And lucky he was not DQ'd in the Cooper fight or at least had it turn into a no contest.

And I say I used the RED line to stay away from talented Cubans and Russians.

Factor in all of the above. I do.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32106059]

I will reply to this when I have time, Sam McVey was a very green 19-20 year old kid when he Ko'd the string bean Martin in 1903. He had very few fights.

He then lost three fights in a row and gave up boxing in late 1904 and all of 1905. Jeffries then would destroy the 20 year old in-experienced kid. He did not deserve a shot.

Jeffries fought Jim Corbett in 1903! Let 's look at what he mad in that fight.

Gate receipts amounted to $62,340 from that fight. The fighters received 70% of the gate, with 75% going to the winner and 25% to the loser. Got it?!

Now please produce the link for that small press offer and remember that is only the purse, not Jeffries cut. Lots of fighter's have their manager make offers that are not economically feasible. I am getting bored mopping the floor with your face.

Yes he lost 3 fights in a row,all to Jack Johnson!
Jeffries defended his title against
Finnegan 4-2-4 = 8 fights
Munroe 7-2-0 =9 fights

Are you saying that McVey in1904 was not a more worthy opponent than those two no hopers or that Jeffries would not have gotten a bigger purse for fighting McVey than he did in those to abysmal mismatches?

NB He got less than $8000 for the Munroe fight!

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32106111]

Yes he lost 3 fights in a row,all to Jack Johnson!
Jeffries defended his title against
Finnegan 4-2-4 = 8 fights
Munroe 7-2-0 =9 fights

Are you saying that McVey in1904 was not a more worthy opponent than those two no hopers or that Jeffries would not have gotten a bigger purse for fighting McVey than he did in those to abysmal mismatches?

NB He got less than $9000 for the Munroe fight!

I would say yes, Jeffries might have made less fighting a "Negro" in 1905. A white 'no namer' would likely have drawn better.

The US boxing crowd may not have accepted the match and it could well have tanked at the gate.

I don't think you give the hostility of 1905 racist segregation its proper political weight. You think that 'boxing worthiness' i.e. 'a worthy challenger' somehow would have trumped American racism. I think that is 21st Century thinking not 1905 reality.

Johnson only got his shot at Burns because it was Australia. It is unlikely Burns would have been able to give Johndon a shot at the title in the US.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n32106119]

I would say yes, Jeffries might have made less fighting a "Negro" in 1905. A white 'no namer' would likely have drawn better.

The US boxing crowd may not have accepted the match and it could well have tanked at the gate.

I don't think you give the hostility of 1905 racist segregation its proper political weight. You think that 'boxing worthiness' i.e. 'a worthy challenger' somehow would have trumped American racism. I think that is 21st Century thinking not 1905 reality.

Johnson only got his shot at Burns because it was Australia. It is unlikely Burns would have been able to give Johndon a shot at the title in the US.

You would be wrong Jeffries was offered a guaranteed $20,000 to defend against McVey in the US.

1. Champion Jim Jeffries turned down a $20,000 offer to fight Sam McVey in 1903.
   
   Stating McVey, having been recently defeated by as he put it "little fellow Johnson ",was not of championship class.
   
   Three years earlier he had defended against John Finnegan 180lbs 4-2-4 who ,a few months prior to his challenge, had been floored 7 times and kod by Gus Ruhlin.
   
   Less than a year after refusing McVey's challenge, Jeffries defended against Jack Munroe ,8-3-2.:think
   
   
   http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cd...srpos=17&e=-------en--20--1--txt-IN-Sam+McVey----#
2. .

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32106111]

Yes he lost 3 fights in a row,all to Jack Johnson!
Jeffries defended his title against
Finnegan 4-2-4 = 8 fights
Munroe 7-2-0 =9 fights

Are you saying that McVey in1904 was not a more worthy opponent than those two no hopers or that Jeffries would not have gotten a bigger purse for fighting McVey than he did in those to abysmal mismatches?

NB He got less than $9000 for the Munroe fight!

Yes, the 19 year old with a thin record lost three fights in a row from 1903 - 1904 and then quit boxing for a while. Yet you still claim he was worthy of a title shot? UM,

I asked for a link which verifies McVey purse offer, which is not the split of the purse nor is it a bank or account secured fight.

McVey was in - active for all of 1905. And he returned in 1906 .

Where is this offer? You're an empty chair.


As I told you the records are incomplete and Munore was a contender at the time fresh off name wins over HOF Maher and Sharkey. That and lie about a KD. Munroe was destroyed by Jeffries. The fight should have been over in round one but the ref wanted to give the fans more so it was over in round two,

No black man in 1900 ( Finnegan fight ) was worthy of a title shot not were there ANY offers in boxing to fight Jeffries.

There is no charge for the above facts, hater.

Regards,

Dr. Z

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32106145]

Yes, the 19 year old with a thin record lost three fights in a row from 1903 - 1904 and then quit boxing for a while. Yet you still claim he was worthy of a title shot? UM,

I asked for a link which verifies McVey purse offer, which is not the split of the purse nor is it a bank or account secured fight.

McVey was in - active for all of 1905. And he returned in 1906 .

Where is this offer? You're an empty chair.


As I told you the records are incomplete and Munore was a contender at the time fresh off name wins over HOF Maher and Sharkey. That and lie about a KD. Munroe was destroyed by Jeffries. The fight should have been over in round one but the ref wanted to give the fans more so it was over in round two,

No black man in 1900 ( Finnegan fight ) was worthy of a title shot not were there ANY offers in boxing to fight Jeffries.

There is no charge for the above facts, hater.

Regards,

Dr. Z

San Francisco Call Nov 5th 1903Jeffries turns down a guaranteed $20,000 to defend against McVey saying as his excuse the 205lbs McVey was recently defeated by " little Jack Johnson,"yet he was happy to defend against the 180lbs Finnegan.

1. Champion Jim Jeffries turned down a $20,000 offer to fight Sam McVey in 1903.
   
   Stating McVey, having been recently defeated by as he put it "little fellow Johnson ",was not of championship class.
   
   Three years earlier he had defended against John Finnegan 180lbs 4-2-4 who ,a few months prior to his challenge, had been floored 7 times and kod by Gus Ruhlin.
   
   Less than a year after refusing McVey's challenge, Jeffries defended against Jack Munroe ,8-3-2.:think
   
   
   http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cd...srpos=17&e=-------en--20--1--txt-IN-Sam+McVey----#
2. Champion Jim Jeffries turned down a $20,000 offer to fight Sam McVey in 1903.
   
   Stating McVey, having been recently defeated by as he put it "little fellow Johnson ",was not of championship class.
   
   Three years earlier he had defended against John Finnegan 180lbs 4-2-4 who ,a few months prior to his challenge, had been floored 7 times and kod by Gus Ruhlin.
   
   Less than a year after refusing McVey's challenge, Jeffries defended against Jack Munroe ,8-3-2.
   
   http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cd...srpos=17&e=-------en--20--1--txt-IN-Sam+McVey----#
3. .

If Finnegan and Munroe were worthy of title shots so was McVey!And instead of getting less than $8000 for defending his title he would have got a guaranteed $20,000.
The real reason Jeffries turned down the McVey challenge is common knowledge.
"I will never take a chance on losing my title to a black man,when there are no more white men left to fight I will retire"Jim Jeffries .
"This fellow Johnson is a fair fighter but he is black and for that reason, I would never fight him.”Jim Jeffries

Just stop with the lies and BS!

Why do you say Munroe's record is incomplete what basis have you for saying that?
Whilst saying Jeannette's and McVeys are not ,I might add.lol Hypocrisy!
Sharkey was totally washed up when Munroe got to him , he had been retired for 2 years and hadn't won a fight for 3 years!

Maher had won just 1 of his last 6 fights,that against the lightweight hapless punching bag Joe Grim by a dsq ,he had been kod in 3 of those fights in one of them by Kid Carter whom 5 months later McVey would ko in11 one sided rounds.

[Marchegiano]

Without saying anything about McVey, I think Monroe as a worthy title defense is a stretch. That was an easy fight.

That said, maybe I missed it, wasn't the Monroe fight just Jeff making a sellable fight our of an exhibition performance? Took it easy on the kid in the ex so that people wanted to see it for real, so Jeff takes on Monroe in a real fight that's super easy for him. No?

Ducking McVey or not, forgivable or not, it's not the best fight of his career or he could have had. I do, however, think all champions should be afforded some easy fights. Especially close to retirement.

Monroe's a bit like Conor for Floyd. Easy fight for him to retire to, no big deal, nothing to hate, imo, but also let's not pretend like it's a resume win. It isn't and he could have fought better comp.



I do not hold a final fight as a duck to any champion, tbf. If you want an easy retirement fight and you've already made it to the title, good for you bud, idc, I won't hold it against them.


Just my two, y'all have fun now.

[QueensburyRules]

Without saying anything about McVey, I think Monroe as a worthy title defense is a stretch. That was an easy fight.

That said, maybe I missed it, wasn't the Monroe fight just Jeff making a sellable fight our of an exhibition performance? Took it easy on the kid in the ex so that people wanted to see it for real, so Jeff takes on Monroe in a real fight that's super easy for him. No?

Ducking McVey or not, forgivable or not, it's not the best fight of his career or he could have had. I do, however, think all champions should be afforded some easy fights. Especially close to retirement.

Monroe's a bit like Conor for Floyd. Easy fight for him to retire to, no big deal, nothing to hate, imo, but also let's not pretend like it's a resume win. It isn't and he could have fought better comp.



I do not hold a final fight as a duck to any champion, tbf. If you want an easy retirement fight and you've already made it to the title, good for you bud, idc, I won't hold it against them.


Just my two, y'all have fun now.

- - Mcvey barely outta diapers when Jeff hung em up. He was going to fight the winner of JJohnson/Marv Hart, but they stunk so bad he said, "Pheeeooow, I'm done with boxing."