Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Dr. Z]

Muhammmad Ali. How great was he?


Well that is an interesting question. On one hand he beat the best USA heavyweights and ranked Western Europeans. Many ring ranked professionals!

And a lot of scoring luck in Ali’s second reign against Jimmy Young and Ken Norton are fights he lost but was given the nod by the judges anyway. Ali's come from behind victory in a late round TKO of Ron Lyle, a fight with no knockdowns which could have been an early stoppage by the ref.


Ali beat the following me who were ranked by ring magazine fighters when he fought them:


Alejandro Lavorante KO 5 – (10) – Hvy – 09/62
Archie Moore TKO 4 – (5) – Hvy – 12/62
Doug Jones UD 10 – (3) – Hvy – 04/63
Henry Cooper TKO 5 – (9) – Hvy – 07/63
Sonny Liston RTD 6* – (C) – Hvy – 02/64
Sonny Liston KO 1 – (1) – Hvy – 06/65
Floyd Patterson TKO 12 – (1) – Hvy – 12/65
George Chuvalo UD 15 – (9) – Hvy – 05/66
Henry Cooper TKO 6 – (4) – Hvy – 07/66
Karl Mildenberger TKO 12 – (3) – Hvy – 9/66
Cleveland Williams TKO 3 – (3) – Hvy – 01/67
Ernie Terrell UD 15 – (1) – Hvy – 03/67
Zora Folley KO 7 – (2) – Hvy – 05/67
Jerry Quarry RTD 3 – (1) – Hvy – 12/70
Oscar Bonavena TKO 15 – (3) – Hvy – 02/71
Joe Frazier L 15 – (C) – Hvy – 04/71
Jimmy Ellis TKO 12 – (7) – Hvy- 09/71
Mac Foster UD 15 – (6) – Hvy – 05/72
Jerry Quarry TKO 7 – (2) – Hvy – 08/72
Floyd Patterson RTD 7 – (3) – Hvy – 11/72
Bob Foster KO 8 – (C-) – 175 – 01/73
Joe Bugner UD 12 – (8) – Hvy – 03/73
Ken Norton L 12 – (9) – Hvy – 05/73
Ken Norton SD 12 – (2) – Hvy – 11/73
Joe Frazier UD 12 – (2) – Hvy – 03/74
George Foreman KO 8* – (C) – Hvy – 12/74
Chuck Wepner TKO 15 – (9) – Hvy – 05/75
Ron Lyle TKO 11 – (8) – Hvy – 07/75
Joe Bugner UD 15 – (4) – Hvy – 08/75
Joe Frazier RTD 14 – (2) – Hvy – 11/75
Jimmy Young UD 15 – (3) – Hvy – 06/76
Ken Norton UD 15 – (2) – Hvy – 11/76
Earnie Shavers UD 15 – (5) – Hvy – 11/77
Leon Spinks L 15* – (9) – Hvy – 03/78
Leon Spinks UD 15* – (C) – Hvy – 10/78
Larry Holmes RTD by 10 – (C) – Hvy – 10/80

- Red equals what most consider to be a bad decision.
-Yellow = A close call

Now that is an impressive list but Ali should have been 53-7. Or maybe 52-7-1 if you call the Shavers fight even. Does this sound a bit like Ron Lyle? Furthermore Ali did not face any Big heavyweights over 230 pounds. He did not face any Eastern Europeans either. Or Cubans. Or Black English men. These four groups are on top of boxing today and have been since 1995! He did face all the USA talent and the white europeans. When you consider this in a fantasy fight perspective and how much trouble he had vs. tier two fighters one is left with a giant question mark on how well he would have done.

Ali was a tough man who used his size and stamina to his advantage He clinched his way to victory vs Joe Fraizer and out lasted Foreman who had a small as tank. He is my #1 ATG based on who he defeated. At the same time, he is a bit suspect and if the Holmes fight happened in 1978 or 1977, Larry Holmes would be the #1 guy. Ali's ability as a boxer in modern times is something in question. Could he defeat Klitschko, Lewis, and Usyk? Maybe. But he also could lose to them.

What do you think?

[Willow The Wisp]

Digging for errors, failings and imperfections among the greatest fighters ever, has become a niche for you.
That's perfectly OK, though many would agree; a bit slanted.
No nobility found in attempting to balance the historical scales through opiniated observation and misinformation.

So recent greats like Tyson, Lewis and the Klitschko brothers never fought a Chinese.
Yet here is Zhilei Zhang today blowing away Britain's big Olympic prospect.
Why and how that is, is an exchange of ideas, not an agendasized conclusion of having meaning.

After this post I may try to boycott this thread, on the grounds that pointing out imperfections in a champion's legacy is of limited value. At least, to me.

But to show no hard feelings Doc; Here's something to help in your education on the topic.

https://boxingnewsonline.net/a-genui...-igor-vyotsky/

Ali, the lowest version who was between Leon Spinks fights, fought the three best Soviet heavyweights (Perhaps ever), Igor Vysotsky, Pyotar Zayev and Yevgeny Gorstkov.

[QueensburyRules]

- - I tire of beating up Ali.

I loved him as one kid to another doing Big Brother stuff I wanted to be doing, but his career is riddled with too many farces starting with Sir 'enery >>>>>

[BKM-]

I think there's a comfortable gap between him and whoever is considered the second best HW ever. His resume and overall accomplishments as well as his qualities as a fighter are incredibly vast.

[Willie Pep 229]

How the hell could Ali have faced any Eastern Europeans?

What a very silly argument to make. Read a history book.

This argument is as dumb as the 'color line' standard. From now on lets call it the Iron Curtain Line.

"He can't be a ATG great he didn't cross the Iron Curtain Line. As a boxer he had a moral obligatiin to fight everyone. I hold him personally accountable for not crossing the "color line."

Oops, I meant to say the Iron Curtain Line.

Same old nonsense. No real sense of history just write down cherry picked facts and pretend you know what you're talking about.

[Ivich]

Digging for errors, failings and imperfections among the greatest fighters ever, has become a niche for you.
That's perfectly OK, though many would agree; a bit slanted.
No nobility found in attempting to balance the historical scales through opiniated observation and misinformation.

So recent greats like Tyson, Lewis and the Klitschko brothers never fought a Chinese.
Yet here is Zhilei Zhang today blowing away Britain's big Olympic prospect.
Why and how that is, is an exchange of ideas, not an agendasized conclusion of having meaning.

After this post I may try to boycott this thread, on the grounds that pointing out imperfections in a champion's legacy is of limited value. At least, to me.

But to show no hard feelings Doc; Here's something to help in your education on the topic.

https://boxingnewsonline.net/a-genui...-igor-vyotsky/

Ali, the lowest version who was between Leon Spinks fights, fought the three best Soviet heavyweights (Perhaps ever), Igor Vysotsky, Pyotar Zayev and Yevgeny Gorstkov.

We have had his slanted cherry picked opinions on
Lewis
Dempsey
Robinson
Frazier
Louis
Johnson
Monzon

And now Ali
Who is next? Three suggestions;
Wlad . Weak chinned ,clincher,who went into a panic attack when he was clipped.Never sought a rematch with Sanders or Purrity

Vitali .Quit against a vastly outsized late sub and never rematched him.Cherry picked his opponents.

Both relied on their brother to take care of opponents they found stylistically problematical.

Jeffries ,As champion ducked the three best black challengers Ed Martin,Sam McVey,and Jack Johnson,and made no bones about it.
"I shall never take a chance on losing my title to a black man." Jim Jeffries.

" He has a reputation built on old men." Gene Tunney .

Fitz, 37 and 39 and coming out of retirement giving away ,39lbs and 47lbs.Jeffries had his faced turned into raw hamburger by the near 40 years old 2 years retired Fitz Jeffries was above and below both eyes.,and his nose broken,he won when Fitz's hands gave out on him and he had nothing left to defend himself with.
"Fitz hit him when and where he pleased , Jeffries won because, he was 12 years the younger man and greatly outweighed his challenger." ,Brooklyn Daily Eagle

Fitz hadn't fought for 2 year prior to either Jeffries fight
Knocked out the top 2 contenders Sharkey and Ruhlin in a 2 week period but had to wait another 2 years before Jeffries would fight him when Fitz was nearly 40 . Instead Jeffries defended against Ruhlin whom Fitz had destroyed.

Goddard was 40 years old when Jeffries fought him.

Jackson.alcoholic and consumptive ,37 years old.Hadn't fought for five and a half years. "he is a shell,I would be ashamed to fight him " Tom Sharkey.
Sharkey five feet eight and a half inches tall,conceding 27 lbs, went 25 rds with Jeffries without being floored, in a fight many thought he won .
Jeffries made a farce of his title by defending against no hopers like.
Jack Munroe 7-2-0
Jack Finnegan 4-2-4 , who conceded 60lbs to the Champion in a pitiful debacle.
Finnegan had been ko'd in his previous fight by Ruhlin, how did he qualify for a title shot?

He like Munroe was White!

Anyone ever see Dr Duck criticize Wlad ,Vitali ,or Jeffries?
What do these three heavyweight champions have in common?

It's a pity Dr Duck does not cast his jaundiced microscope over these men and apply the same rigorous criteria to their careers that he does his long list of disparaged champion victims.

BLATANT HYPOCRISY.

[Dr. Z]

We have had his slanted cherry picked opinions on
Lewis
Dempsey
Robinson
Frazier
Louis
Johnson

And Ali
Who is next? Three suggestions;
Wlad . Weak chinned ,clincher,who went into a panic attack when he was clipped.Never sought a rematch with Sanders or Purrity

Vitali .Quit against a vastly outsized late sub and never rematched him.Cherry picked his opponents.

Both relied on their brother to take care of opponents they found stylistically problematical.

Jeffries ,As champion ducked the three best black challengers Ed Martin,Sam McVey,and Jack Johnson,and made no bones about it.
" He has a reputation built on old men." Gene Tunney .
Fitz, 37 and 39 and coming out of retirement giving away ,39lbs and 47lbs.Jeffries had his faced turned into raw hamburger by the near 40 years old 2 years retired Fitz cut above and below both eyes., nose broken,he won when Fitzs hands gave out on him and he had nothing left to defend himself with.
"Fitz hit him when and where he pleased , Jeffries won because, he was 12 years the younger man and greatly outweighed." Fitzsimmons,Brooklyn Daily Eagle

Fitz hadn't fought for 2 year prior to either Jeffries fight
Knocked out the top 2 contenders Sharkey and Ruhlin in a 2 week period but had to wait another 2 years before Jeffries would fight him when Fitz was nearly 40 . Instead Jeffries defended against Ruhlin whom Fitz had destroyed

Goddard was 40years old when Jeffries fought him.
Jackson.alcoholic and consumptive ,37 years old.Hadn't fought for five and a half years. "he is a shell,I would be ashamed to fight him " Tom Sharkey.
Sharkey five feet eight and a half inches tall,conceding 27 lbs, went 25 rds with Jeffries without being floored, in a fight many thought he won .
Jeffries made a farce of his title by defending against no hopers like.
Jack Munroe 7-2-0
Jack Finnegan 4-2-4 , who conceded 60lbs in a pitiful debacle Finnegan had been ko'd in his previous fight by Ruhlin, how did he qualify for a title shot? He like Munroe was White!

Anyone ever see Dr Duck criticize Wlad ,Vitali ,or Jeffries?
What do these three heavyweight champions have in common?
Its a pity Dr Duck does not cast his microscope over these men and apply the same rigorous criteria to their careers that he does his long list of Champion victims.

HYPOCRISY.

Fitz was 36 the first time he faced Jeffries. You have been told this before. You never learn. He was not 37. What does this have to do with this thread? Jeffries was offered a purse to fight Martin? Produce it you lair. You are being called out. Jackson was 36, not 37 as you claim.


You don't know Muroe's full record and you don't know Finnegans. That two errors already form your " reply " And one call out.

Mcvey quit in one round after he was hurt. Johnson quit in the ring ... twice. Jeffries did return to fight Johnson. Too bad he lost to Hart in an elimination match to meet Jeffreis in 1905 and there was a big purse( like Reno ) when Jeffries was in his prime and active as he was very likely to have won then.

Vitali quit while injured. He tore his shoulder. He fought with it for many rounds, and was well ahead in the fight. Greb and Sugar Robinson also quit with injuries so he is in good company.

To use your horrible attempt to segway this thread into another topic, let us a segway on the topic at hand all we? You have a habit of locking threads and regulating the same information which is often full of errors. I might report you now to the mids for attempting to do it..

Now that we have been over this we can comment on the thread.

Ali was knocked down by two small men. Cruiser weights. The first time by Sony Banks. The second time by Henry Cooper , who might have TKO'd Ali but Ali was let down gently by the ropes, and illegally given smelling salts ( they were illegal in British boxing ) You can see when Ali came to his corner from the salts. His eyes were like pinballs.

[Dr. Z]

Here's something to help in your education on the topic.

https://boxingnewsonline.net/a-genui...-igor-vyotsky/

Ali, the lowest version who was between Leon Spinks fights, fought the three best Soviet heavyweights (Perhaps ever), Igor Vysotsky, Pyotar Zayev and Yevgeny Gorstkov.

Thanks. Vysotsky was something. His exhibition against Ali happened when he was well past his prime. Igor was a Russian ***. He also had an iron chin and was never KO's by punches in 185 fights. Nor was he knocked down. Though this is disputed. The thunderous punching Vysotsky. He was a man who could deliver a KO with either hand and at any distance. His full amateur record was 161–24. He had an iron head which had an abundance of calcium deposits or his brow. This caused some issues with cuts in the multiple day amateur torments.

He recently passed away in 2023. He and Stevenson were two very pro like amateurs, #1 at the time when Ali was on top. Politics prevented the fights. As I said Ali had no pro bouts vs these two nations. Russian and Cubans. If Ali fought them in the early to mid 1970's who knows? Imo both men were real talented would give Ali some real problems. Maybe even beat him or least have good showings vs him.

[Ivich]

Fitz was 36 the first time he faced Jeffries. You have been told this before. You never learn. He was not 37. What does this have to do with this thread? Jeffries was offered a purse to fight Martin? Produce it you lair. You are being called out. Jackson was 36, not 37 as you claim.


You don't know Muroe's full record and you don't know Finnegans. That two errors already form your " reply " And one call out.

Mcvey quit in one round after he was hurt. Johnson quit in the ring ... twice. Jeffries did return to fight Johnson. Too bad he lost to Hart in an elimination match to meet Jeffreis in 1905 and there was a big purse( like Reno ) when Jeffries was in his prime and active as he was very likely to have won then.

Vitali quit while injured. He tore his shoulder. He fought with it for many rounds, and was well ahead in the fight. Greb and Sugar Robinson also quit with injuries so he is in good company.

To use your horrible attempt to segway this thread into another topic, let us a segway on the topic at hand all we? You have a habit of locking threads and regulating the same information which is often full of errors. I might report you now to the mids for attempting to do it..

Now that we have been over this we can comment on the thread.

Ali was knocked down by two small men. Cruiser weights. The first time by Sony Banks. The second time by Henry Cooper , who might have TKO'd Ali but Ali was let down gently by the ropes, and illegally given smelling salts ( they were illegal in British boxing ) You can see when Ali came to his corner from the salts. His eyes were like pinballs.

We have Munroe's and Finnegan's records in Pollack's Jeffries book ,CBZ ,and Box Rec.
A local promoter offered Jeffries a $15,000 guarantee to defend against Martin,he also offered him a guarantee to defend against McVey.

Jeffries many many times in print stated he would," never take a chance on defending his title against a Negro." Or as he frequently called the race ,"skunks and coons".
Here is a report of McVey's historic fight with Jeannette.

On a cold spring evening at Cirque de Paris in 1909, Joe Jeannette and Sam McVea, both inductees of the International Boxing Hall of Fame and among the greatest heavyweights to ever live, waged what many to this day claim must have been the greatest fight ever in the sport of boxing. Several of boxing’s most official sources, including The Boxing Register, The Encyclopedia of Boxing by Gilbert Odd and An Illustrated History of Boxing by Nat Fleischer, described a bout that included thirty-eight knockdowns over the course of forty-eight three-minute rounds. Twenty-seven were recorded in favor of McVea during the first two-thirds of the fight, and eleven were recorded in favor of Jeannette during the later rounds. Yet primary sources of information written immediately after the bout, French and American newspapers in particular, do not claim nearly the same multitude of knockdowns.



All accounts of the event recall Jeannette being sprawled on the canvas numerous times, up to five times in the 19th round alone, and each report marveled at his ability to endure punishment, recuperate and come back fighting. As for McVea, the number of knockdowns aside, it is also without dispute that he suffered a severe eye injury early in the match, and by the time he gave up before the beginning of the 49th round, both eyes were closed and his face was a mangled mess.

Does that sound like a coward to you?lol
Before the Johnson v Hart fight Jeffries publicly stated that if Johnson won he would not fight him ,this is common knowledge and undeniable. Banks was 3 lbs lighter than the194 1.2lbs Ali.
Jeffries went 20 rds to a draw with 167lbs Choynski Jeffries was 219s and many thought Choynski deserved the decision.
"Noted baseball umpire Jim McDonald was selected by both parties to act as referee. Jeffries dropped Choynski with a left hook just before the bell ending round 3. It was the only knockdown in the fight. Joe drew first blood in the 11th. Choynski landed more often, especially with the straight left, but Jeffries landed the heavier blows. The San Francisco Call reported that Choynski deserved the decision."

I don't lock threads the moderators do that, to my knowledge that has only happened to yours .

I have just pointed out your blatant hypocrisy in defaming many great champions yet staying silent on your three vanilla hued favourites.
Others have commented on this and recently you were labelled an old racist on here.
Ali got up as fast as he went down against Cooper,walked to his corner, came out the next round and stopped him.
ps The word is SEGUAY.lol

[Dr. Z]

We have Munroe's and Finnegan's records in Pollack's Jeffries book ,CBZ ,and Box Rec.
A local promoter offered Jeffries a $15,000 guarantee to defend against Martin,he also offered him a guarantee to defend against McVey.

Jeffries many many times in print stated he would," never take a chance on defending his title against a Negro.

Your hero, Pollack list Murore's known record. Surely Munore has more fights than he lists. Pollack would agree with me on this. But he is banned here.

You were corrected multiple times in this thread with the ages. Time for one more. Money. They fight for the prize money. Jeffreis made a lot more vs. Fitz and Corbett than he would have vs. Martin ( and Ruhlin ) who if you do some research by looking at the CBZ it was reported that Jeffries KO'd Martin. Besides, anyone can make an offer for their fighter to make news. There was no secured purse fomr this unknown guy. Who was he again? Exactly.

Jeffries risked his lineal title vs. Hank Griffin in 1901. And he was black. Remember him. The same man beat Jack Johnson around the timeline.

And when the purse was right returned to risk his lineal title v.s Johnson as an old, in-active ( 6 years out of the ring) So much for what he said. You will find what was said and what is offered can change with money and in Jeffries case did. These quotes are at best time based.

No more shall I reply to you in this thread ( save you lies and false information ) as your intention is to have this thread locked. You have been flagged by me.