Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Ivich]

- - McVey was a kid easily handled by JJohnson. Press were calling for Jeffries at the end of his career to fight Johnson, not McVea, not Jeannette, nor Hart, and Sam already stated he never wanted to fight Jeff.

Had Johnson whooped Hart in what was functionally an early eliminator, Jeff would've done so. After they stunk up the ring in their fight, Jeff announced his comfortable retirement having vanquished all top heavies worthy of a title shot.

McVey had more fights than Jeffries and for his last fight with Johnson, who stopped him he was 20 years old. McVey challenged Jeffries, several times.
It was Langford who said he excluded Jeffries from a fight,at the time Langford weighed less than160lbs .

Jeffries publicly stated he would not fight Johnson if he should beat Hart, so no eliminator there.
Jeffries had beaten the best of the White challengers but not any of the best of the Black ones.
The crux of the argument is not whether Jeffries would or wouldn't beat McVey in late 1904.its whether Mcvey was as worthy ,or more worthy of a title shot than Finnegan and Munroe and he obviously was.
Just as obviously is the fact that the $20,000 guarantee that Jeffries turned down to fight McVey was well over what he made to defend against Finnegan $1,500,and Munroe $7,848.
Jeffries didn't turn down a fight with McVey because he wouldn't give him a good , profitable fight,he did so because if he defended against McVey he would have established ,a precedent , his colour line stance would have collapsed,and he would have been compelled to fight Johnson!

[Willie Pep 229]

I agree, Jeffries stated he wouldn't defend his title against a 'Negro' but then in a sense he did.

Maybe if Johnson had been more dominating in his fight with Hart he might have been able to force Jeffries into the ring via public opinion. Maybe.

He got his shot against Burns because Burns had run out of challengers (having fought two different white fighters twice each) and Johnson was the only big money fight Burns could muster.

Situation was/would have been the same for Jeffries if JJ had just looked great against Hart.

If Jeffries' pride was big enough, that he could be talked out of a five year retirement by public pressure, why wouldn't public pressure have had the same effect in 1905?

Had JJ dominated and KO Hart there would have been a loud cry for a Johnson-Jeffries go, despite Jeffries color line remarks.

We know the man would cross the color line because he did, just that, five years later.

It would have been based on how much public pressure there was, and how much promised money there would be.

I think Johnson blew his chance when he looked lackluster with Hart. (Or maybe Hart is just better than the credit we give him.)

But I think that a dominate JJ that night, would have placed much pressure on Jim Jeffries and Jeffries might have succumb to it.

[Dr. Z]

I agree, Jeffries stated he wouldn't defend his title against a 'Negro' but then in a sense he did.

Maybe if Johnson had been more dominating in his fight with Hart he might have been able to force Jeffries into the ring via public opinion. Maybe.

He got his shot against Burns because Burns had run out of challengers (having fought two different white fighters twice each) and Johnson was the only big money fight Burns could muster.

Situation was/would have been the same for Jeffries if JJ had just looked great against Hart.

If Jeffries' pride was big enough, that he could be talked out of a five year retirement by public pressure, why wouldn't public pressure have had the same effect in 1905?

Had JJ dominated and KO Hart there would have been a loud cry for a Johnson-Jeffries go, despite Jeffries color line remarks.

We know the man would cross the color line because he did, just that, five years later.

It would have been based on how much public pressure there was, and how much promised money there would be.

I think Johnson blew his chance when he looked lackluster with Hart. (Or maybe Hart is just better than the credit we give him.)

But I think that a dominate JJ that night, would have placed much pressure on Jim Jeffries and Jeffries might have succumb to it.

Doubtful. A quick review of the records up to the post Hart fight shows Jeffries was the better and the two fought the 4 common opponents. In each case Jeffries did better.

Had there been a record purse in 1905, I think it is likely we see the fight.

[Ivich]

I agree, Jeffries stated he wouldn't defend his title against a 'Negro' but then in a sense he did.

Maybe if Johnson had been more dominating in his fight with Hart he might have been able to force Jeffries into the ring via public opinion. Maybe.

He got his shot against Burns because Burns had run out of challengers (having fought two different white fighters twice each) and Johnson was the only big money fight Burns could muster.

Situation was/would have been the same for Jeffries if JJ had just looked great against Hart.

If Jeffries' pride was big enough, that he could be talked out of a five year retirement by public pressure, why wouldn't public pressure have had the same effect in 1905?

Had JJ dominated and KO Hart there would have been a loud cry for a Johnson-Jeffries go, despite Jeffries color line remarks.

We know the man would cross the color line because he did, just that, five years later.

It would have been based on how much public pressure there was, and how much promised money there would be.

I think Johnson blew his chance when he looked lackluster with Hart. (Or maybe Hart is just better than the credit we give him.)

But I think that a dominate JJ that night, would have placed much pressure on Jim Jeffries and Jeffries might have succumb to it.

He would cross the colour line as long as he wasn't defending his title ,he was terrified of losing his crown to a black man,

[Marchegiano]

Why didn't public pressure get any commies to Ali?

[QueensburyRules]

McVey had more fights than Jeffries and for his last fight with Johnson, who stopped him he was 20 years old. McVey challenged Jeffries, several times.
It was Langford who said he excluded Jeffries from a fight,at the time Langford weighed less than160lbs .

Jeffries publicly stated he would not fight Johnson if he should beat Hart, so no eliminator there.
Jeffries had beaten the best of the White challengers but not any of the best of the Black ones.
The crux of the argument is not whether Jeffries would or wouldn't beat McVey in late 1904.its whether Mcvey was as worthy ,or more worthy of a title shot than Finnegan and Munroe and he obviously was.
Just as obviously is the fact that the $20,000 guarantee that Jeffries turned down to fight McVey was well over what he made to defend against Finnegan $1,500,and Munroe $7,848.
Jeffries didn't turn down a fight with McVey because he wouldn't give him a good , profitable fight,he did so because if he defended against McVey he would have established ,a precedent , his colour line stance would have collapsed,and he would have been compelled to fight Johnson!

- - Yeah, the Sam rematch that JJohnson ducked for the remainder of his life. Thanks for the reminder....

Jeff twice fought the guy who KOed JJohnson. Had not JJohnson been such a weenie then, Jeff would've KOed Johnson as well.

[Dr. Z]

Why didn't public pressure get any commies to Ali?

Ali did go to Russia to fight exhibition matches in 1978 matches


https://www.nytimes.com/1978/06/21/a...-pounding.html

MOSCOW, June 20—Muhammad Ali sparred in the ring today with three Soviet heavyweight boxers—and in the United States Embassy with about 100 diplomats and staffers—as he prepared to wrap up his 10‐day stay in the Soviet Union.

The former world heavyweight champion was mobbed by a crowd of 4,000 fans who jammed his exhibition Match. Tired and bathed in sweat, he said afterward, “it'll be good to get home again.”

“He's something sacred, said Sidor Petrov, a scarfaced boxer who was watching Ali box two three‐minute rounds with the Soviet heavyweight champion, Igor Vysotsky.

The crowd in the Central. Army Sports Club roared .and cheered when All, fresh froth a reception by President Brezhnev in the Kremlin yesterday, strode to the ring in a white robe. A group of United States Marine guards from the Embassy unfurled an American flag and waved it vigorously. Scores of uniformed Soviet soldiers applauded, too.


The “comradely training fights,” as they were billed, pitted the 36‐year‐old Ali—at 234 pounds, 24 pounds over his best fighting weight—against three of the best Soviet boxers in his class.

Pyotr Zayev, 25 years old, connected heavily and repeatedly as Ali danced and shuffled around the ring.

Ali Takes a Pounding

Yevgeny Gorstkov 27, left the ring with a bloody nose, and then came the 24‐year‐old Vysotsky, All let him hit him for the first of their two rounds, his 10‐ounce gloves protecting his head, letting the younger man get tired. Then Alley both got angry. Vysotsky drove All into a corner and pummeled him with a series of rapid blows before All swung back wildly. Ali's assistant, Sultasn Kkarim shouted to him, “Don't let him shove you, champ.”

“He's tired,” Petrov said with a smile.

In the second round, All popped loose with his famous left, followed by another good left to Vysotsky's head, and the crowd came alive. Even overweight and out of shape, Ali meant something to the fans, touched a chord here and there. They cheered when it was over and he was presented with a crystal boxing glove. There was no decision.

Suddenly scores of people crowded onto the ring, asking for autographs, wanting to talk. Ali jumped down, tried to go out, and was caught in a crush of Russians who tore at his dressing gown, his bandages, his gloves. “They wanted a piece of him, a souvenir,” Karim said later, enjoying it.


In the dressing room, Ali rested and told some reporters, “These guys trained for this fight—I haven't done nothin'. You saw me at my worst. Every one of them was hard to hit and they all hit hard—and they all hit me.”

After the match a colortape was broadcast on national Soviet television.

“I felt like the black president of the United States,” Ali told a crowd of Americans gathered to meet him in the Embassy snack bar this afternoon. “It'll be goad to go home.”




>>> Here is a treat. Ali vs. Vystosy with Howard Cossel commenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWP_jN0J1_k

[Dr. Z]

Why didn't public pressure get any commies to Ali?

https://www.ringtv.com/videos/video-...hat-never-was/


Why didn't Ali fight him? They wasn't a purse offered for him to do it.

[Marchegiano]

Ali did go to Russia to fight exhibition matches in 1978 matches


https://www.nytimes.com/1978/06/21/a...-pounding.html

MOSCOW, June 20—Muhammad Ali sparred in the ring today with three Soviet heavyweight boxers—and in the United States Embassy with about 100 diplomats and staffers—as he prepared to wrap up his 10‐day stay in the Soviet Union.

The former world heavyweight champion was mobbed by a crowd of 4,000 fans who jammed his exhibition Match. Tired and bathed in sweat, he said afterward, “it'll be good to get home again.”

“He's something sacred, said Sidor Petrov, a scarfaced boxer who was watching Ali box two three‐minute rounds with the Soviet heavyweight champion, Igor Vysotsky.

The crowd in the Central. Army Sports Club roared .and cheered when All, fresh froth a reception by President Brezhnev in the Kremlin yesterday, strode to the ring in a white robe. A group of United States Marine guards from the Embassy unfurled an American flag and waved it vigorously. Scores of uniformed Soviet soldiers applauded, too.


The “comradely training fights,” as they were billed, pitted the 36‐year‐old Ali—at 234 pounds, 24 pounds over his best fighting weight—against three of the best Soviet boxers in his class.

Pyotr Zayev, 25 years old, connected heavily and repeatedly as Ali danced and shuffled around the ring.

Ali Takes a Pounding

Yevgeny Gorstkov 27, left the ring with a bloody nose, and then came the 24‐year‐old Vysotsky, All let him hit him for the first of their two rounds, his 10‐ounce gloves protecting his head, letting the younger man get tired. Then Alley both got angry. Vysotsky drove All into a corner and pummeled him with a series of rapid blows before All swung back wildly. Ali's assistant, Sultasn Kkarim shouted to him, “Don't let him shove you, champ.”

“He's tired,” Petrov said with a smile.

In the second round, All popped loose with his famous left, followed by another good left to Vysotsky's head, and the crowd came alive. Even overweight and out of shape, Ali meant something to the fans, touched a chord here and there. They cheered when it was over and he was presented with a crystal boxing glove. There was no decision.

Suddenly scores of people crowded onto the ring, asking for autographs, wanting to talk. Ali jumped down, tried to go out, and was caught in a crush of Russians who tore at his dressing gown, his bandages, his gloves. “They wanted a piece of him, a souvenir,” Karim said later, enjoying it.


In the dressing room, Ali rested and told some reporters, “These guys trained for this fight—I haven't done nothin'. You saw me at my worst. Every one of them was hard to hit and they all hit hard—and they all hit me.”

After the match a colortape was broadcast on national Soviet television.

“I felt like the black president of the United States,” Ali told a crowd of Americans gathered to meet him in the Embassy snack bar this afternoon. “It'll be goad to go home.”




>>> Here is a treat. Ali vs. Vystosy with Howard Cossel commenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWP_jN0J1_k

https://www.ringtv.com/videos/video-...hat-never-was/


Why didn't Ali fight him? They wasn't a purse offered for him to do it.

... If I was even pretending like I knew the answer to what I asked I would understand why you are asking me for more information, but my question was not rhetorical.

[Ivich]

https://www.ringtv.com/videos/video-...hat-never-was/


Why didn't Ali fight him? They wasn't a purse offered for him to do it.

Why didnt he fight an amateur in a country where professional boxing was outlawed ? Do you really need an answer to this?FFS!