Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Ivich]

- - And you hire chefs to FrenchFry your snails, and your point is?

I don't hire anyone,I eat in restaurants who hire people to cook for their customers
Back to your Lescargot obsession?
Snails are not fried,they are cleansed and cooked in the shell with garlic and butter and very tasty they are!
My point is McVey was not a novice nor was he in his teens he was a 27 fight boxer that's 6 more fights than Jeffries had engaged in .
Get it now, back woods and backward Billy Boy? Best stick to your grits and possum,I don't think Haute Cuisine is for you.lol

[Ivich]

It's testament to Ali's fantastic record that you still say he has the best resume even thought he should have 7 losses according to you.

The fact that Cuba and Russia did not allow pro boxing,[though their teams were professional in everything but name,] totally escapes Dr Duck. As does the fact that Ali beat a Pole and a Russian in the process of winning his Olympic Gold Medal.lol

[Dr. Z]

The fact that Cuba and Russia did not allow pro boxing,[though their teams were professional in everything but name,] totally escapes Dr Duck. As does the fact that he beat a Pole and a Russian in the process of winning his Olympic Gold Medal.lol

Oh I know Ali won the light heavyweight gold medal.

The point being these were two boxing's power and Ali fought neither. Ali's fight with the pole was close, and he was not very good.

[Ivich]

Oh I know Ali win the light heavyweight gold medal.

The point being these were two boxing's power and Ali fought neither. Ali's fight with the pole was close, and he was not very good.

Why do you keep ****ing on about Ali not fighting Eastern Europeans and Cubans when he was a pro ,when as everyone knows,there we no men from these countries for him to fight? Its ludicrous! The salient point is there were none for Ali to fight!
The power of boxing was concentrated in the US,monthly heavyweight rankings in the 40's,50's, 60's and 70's gave us
360 top ten ranked contenders over that 40 years, of these only 37 were not American.

Two were Cuban ,Agramonte and Valdes,both were before Ali's time.


As a professional Ali fought a ;
Canadian
Jamaican
Uruguayan
German x2
British x4
Dutch
Belgian
Argentinian x3

You tell us who he should have fought but didn't?

While you are at it, explain exactly to us what point you think you are making?

[Willie Pep 229]

When Jeffries retired after 21 fights,McVey was 21 years old with a record of 27 fights and weighed 205/210lbs.So much for his alleged "inexperience."
Before his fight with Johnson ,Hart stated.
" I am a Southerner I will fight this ****** just to put him in his place but I shall never fight another," he never did.
Nobody is going to convince me that McVey would not have been a tougher fight for Jeffries than no hopers, Munroe and Finnegan.Jeffries turned down a guaranteed $20,000 to fight McVey in1903 and fought Munroe instead, a year later, he got under $8000 for the farce against Munroe.

Jeffries defended against Finnegan in a Masonic Hall that had been converted into an AC Club, Masonic Halls in the UK usually hold about 200/250 people I don't know if the US is any different,I didn't attend any meetings there.
What is clear is it would not have been a good purse for Jeffries.
The "fight " was a travesty that lasted 45 seconds.Jeffries was estimated as being up to70lbs heavier than the luckless Finnegan.
"Finnegan landed the first blow as they came to the center of the ring, and Jeffries then put his left on the Pittsburgh man's jaw and he went to the floor. Finnegan came up in a few seconds only to be sent to the floor again with a blow in the same place. He stayed down longer this time and when he again rose he was in visible distress. He had hardly assumed a fighting position before the champion put his left in the pit of his stomach and Finnegan went down completely out. Referee Siler counted the seconds off and when he stepped back it was seen that Finnegan was crying. He staggered to his feet, reeled against the ropes and his seconds rushed into the ring and carried him to his corner. It was several minutes before he recovered sufficiently to leave the ring. Jeffries said he weighed 220, but he looked 30 pounds heavier. Finnegan weighed but 180, and he looked like a boy beside the champion." (Brooklyn Daily Eagle)
Going into the Jeffries title fight Finnegan had met ONE class fighter.
Gus Ruhlin who massacred him in 4 rds, flooring him 7 times before koing him,and at one stage knocking him clear out of the ring.
This was only 3 months before Finnegan challenged Jeffries. Finnegan had 4 wins 2 draws and 4 losses when he fought Jeffries ,2 of his wins were dsq's, and 2 were over middleweights.
Given this verified information let's hear no more about how McVey was not a more suitable opponent for Jeffries in late1903 1904!

So where is Jeffries' professionalism?

Tex Rickard said: "Jack, I need four rounds." Dempsey nodded. That's a confident champion/man.

What the hell is with Jeffries, ruining the evening for everybody, acting like that. I ask again, where's the man's professionalism? This wasn't a mere athletic event, this was a GD HW Championship prize fight. He had an obligation to the game, to carry the bum for a few rounds.

Name the HW Champions who were confident enough to carry an opponent for the sake of the show and those who were not.

Confident Enough (In no particular order.)

1. Dempsey
2. Johnson
3. Fury
4. Louis
5. Ali
6. Walcott
7. Baer (Who probably shouldn't have but would do it anyway if needed.)
8.
9.


Too Insecure:

1. Tyson
2. Patterson
3. Jeffries
4.
5.


Could make for an interesting list, both ways.

[Ivich]

So where is Jeffries' professionalism?

Tex Rickard said: "Jack, I need four rounds." Dempsey nodded. That's a confident champion/man.

What the hell is with Jeffries, ruining the evening for everybody, acting like that. I ask again, where's the man's professionalism? This wasn't a mere athletic event, this was a GD HW Championship prize fight. He had an obligation to the game, to carry the bum for a few rounds.

Name the HW Champions who were confident enough to carry an opponent for the sake of the show and those who were not.

Confident Enough (In no particular order.)

1. Dempsey
2. Johnson
3. Fury
4. Louis
5. Ali
6. Walcott
7. Baer (Who probably shouldn't have but would do it anyway if needed.)
8.
9.


Too Insecure:

1. Tyson
2. Patterson
3. Jeffries
4.
5.


Could make for an interesting list, both ways.

Since Jeffries only made $1,200 for rolling over Finnegan he probably didn't feel inclined to prolong matters. Jeffries thought so little of Finnegan he came in the ring weighing an estimated 250lbs,he knew it was a farce. Jeffries didnt train seriously for Munroe either,he knew it was an unconsciable mismatch.

• The Los Angeles Herald reported the following on August 27, 1904:

Like the veriest amateur in the prize ring, Jack Munroe of Butte, Mont., went down and out before Champion James J. Jeffries tonight in the second round. The man from the mining district made such an extremely sorry showing that the great throng in Mechanics pavilion roundly hooted him as he protested to Referee Graney against the decision that had been given in favor of the champion. The two giants had not been in the ring two minutes when it was foreseen that the aspirations of Munroe would be quickly disposed of. The miner was scared and awkward and Jeffries in the first round had him twice on the canvas taking the count. Jeffries directed his bombardment against the stomach of his opponent and each shot was followed by a blow on the jaw that sent Munroe to his knees. Jeffries went back to his corner after the opening round with a sneer and a laugh on his swarthy face, while Munroe's seconds busied themselves with smelling salts and restoratives. When the two came together for the second round the laugh on the champion's visage changed to a look of determination that boded ill for the miner. Forty-five seconds after the gong sounded Munroe was lying on the floor, a bloody, bruised mass of humanity, with Jeffries standing over him, ready if necessary to put the quietus on the championship ambitions of his adversary. The miner was too dazed to rise to his feet and the time keepers counted him out, but the husky man from Southern California did not understand that the victory was already his, nor could Munroe realize that his pugilistic star had so early set, and the two men in a moment or two were facing one another and Jeffries landed a terrific blow on the jaw of his staggering opponent. It was at this time that Graney came forward and ordered Jeffries away, telling him that the fight was ended in his favor. Munroe tottered to his corner with blood ******ing from his face and fell into his chair dazed and helpless. His seconds immediately began working on him to freshen him, and when he came to a realization that the fight had gone against him he arose and, going over to Referee Graney, began to make a protest.

• 17 August 1904 San Francisco Call: [1]
• .Look at the paunch on Jeffries, he's in worst shape than he was for Johnson 6 years later!

image.png
Less than a year later Munroe fought Johnson,he put up an abysmal effort,
"According to the Philadelphia Record, it was plain Munroe had not really trained for this fight as he appeared flabby and pale, and had not learned anything since the loss to Jim Jeffries. As the ex-miner offered no real threat to Johnson, the Galveston heavyweight merely boxed with him from the third round on, making no serious attempt to put Munroe away but beating him badly."

"...Jack Johnson, the California colored heavyweight, made a veritable punching bag of Jack Munroe, the Butte Miner, at the National Athletic Club last night..."

[Ivich]

Oh I know Ali won the light heavyweight gold medal.

The point being these were two boxing's power and Ali fought neither. Ali's fight with the pole was close, and he was not very good.

Want to know how many times Ali fought top ten Ring ranked contenders and champions ? THIRTY SIX!

Name another champion who did that!

[Dr. Z]

Why do you keep ****ing on about Ali not fighting Eastern Europeans and Cubans when he was a pro ,when as everyone knows,there we no men from these countries for him to fight? Its ludicrous! The salient point is there were none for Ali to fight!
The power of boxing was concentrated in the US,monthly heavyweight rankings in the 40's,50's, 60's and 70's gave us
360 top ten ranked contenders over that 40 years, of these only 37 were not American.

Two were Cuban ,Agramonte and Valdes,both were before Ali's time.


As a professional Ali fought a ;
Canadian
Jamaican
Uruguayan
German x2
British x4
Dutch
Belgian
Argentinian x3

You tell us who he should have fought but didn't?

While you are at it, explain exactly to us what point you think you are making?

I know who Ali fought. He was an active champion. But this thread is about just how great he is.

Ali officially lost 5 times, and really should have lost 7 times. I will debate that with round by round score cards and punch stats!

And he did not fight any Eastern Europeans ( Soviets ) or Cubans as pros. There were some world talents. The two groups have been on top of boxing since 2000.

It's like the fastest man in the world was one by Frank Javis in 1900. But the race featured no black men or Russian men.

That is the point I am making. Ali was undoubtedly great in his era, but was unproven vs these two groups. He also lost a few and did not look good in several fights. It is an interesting topic.

[Ivich]

I know who Ali fought. He was an active champion. But this thread is about just how great he is.

Ali officially lost 5 times, and really should have lost 7 times. I will debate that with round by round score cards and punch stats!

And he did not fight any Eastern Europeans ( Soviets ) or Cubans as pros. There were some world talents. The two groups have been on top of boxing since 2000.

It's like the fastest man in the world was one by Frank Javis in 1900. But the race featured no black men or Russian men.

That is the point I am making. Ali was undoubtedly great in his era, but was unproven vs these two groups. He also lost a few and did not look good in several fights. It is an interesting topic.

Its a hate agenda driven topic and everyone knows it!
There were no world talent professional Cubans or Eastern European heavyweights fighting during Ali's career so your therefore your thread is illogical ,and irrelevant!
You're not making a point ,you're making an ass of yourself!

[QueensburyRules]

I don't hire anyone,I eat in restaurants who hire people to cook for their customers
Back to your Lescargot obsession?
Snails are not fried,they are cleansed and cooked in the shell with garlic and butter and very tasty they are!
My point is McVey was not a novice nor was he in his teens he was a 27 fight boxer that's 6 more fights than Jeffries had engaged in .
Get it now, back woods and backward Billy Boy? Best stick to your grits and possum,I don't think Haute Cuisine is for you.lol

- - McVey was a kid easily handled by JJohnson. Press were calling for Jeffries at the end of his career to fight Johnson, not McVea, not Jeannette, nor Hart, and Sam already stated he never wanted to fight Jeff.

Had Johnson whooped Hart in what was functionally an early eliminator, Jeff would've done so. After they stunk up the ring in their fight, Jeff announced his comfortable retirement having vanquished all top heavies worthy of a title shot.