Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Marchegiano]

Among others Ali beat a Belgian, a Russian ,and a Pole, to get his Olympic Gold Medal.Was it his fault they didn't turn pro?
The OP has a long ,and confirmed history of tearing down great champions.
The only ones safe from his constant assassinations of reputations are;
Wlad
Vitali
Jeffries
They can do no wrong.

To be honest I did not know that, but to be fair to Z, that's not much. To be fair to me, they did suck. I'm just razzing you a bit, that is a fair point.

Jeffries? I'm a Jeffries fan myself. I think a colorline era champion who at least fought a handful of black fighters prior to being champion made a better attempt at asserting their boxing ability while appeasing the racists of the era than those who didn't or only fought one or two. That said, yeah, he's guilty of drawing that line for the title. ... So not really a real champion imo.

[Marchegiano]

Yes, history will explain in detail why Ali could not have have fought any these men.

Why would you choose 'history' as support for your susposed 'duck' argument when it is 'history' that explains exactly why Ali would never have had any possible chance to fight an EE fighter.

Simply refering to past facts, is NOT history. You should not use 'history' in such a frivous manner.

Oooo, ****, I'd give Pep mad points but Pep doesn't like my Who's Line rip-off game so I'll just say that is a very good point I feel ****** for not suggesting myself.


I get that it's similar, but I feel like Ivich, and myself, were kind of dancing around it where as Pep just hit directly on the button.


Respect fool.

[Dr. Z]

Ivich,


Yes he lost against Frazier having only18 rounds of boxing under his belt in the previous 4 years!He subsequently beat Frazier twice.

He lost against Norton when the night before, he had two women in his bed.he subsequently beat Norton twice.

He lost to Spinks. And he beat him in the rematch.
And he lost to Holmes and Berbick when he had no business being in a ring
News Flash punch stats do not decide fights.
Nor does sticking your head and torso out of the ring,[ which is a foul,] to avoid punches win you fights ,or any friends.
Ali beat Chuvalo out of sight twice.
Ellis
Folley
Mathis
Mac Foster
Bugner x2
Lidton
Daniels
Terrell
Were all good jabbers,how did they do against him?

Which Cuban or Russian should he have fought?

Nobody thought Shavers beat Ali.

• Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
• Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
• Judge: Eva Shain 9-6

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

Ali v Young.

• The Associated Press reported: "Ali seemed content to toy in the first four rounds, doing very little fighting. He then began coming on in the fifth round and started landing with power, although he still missed much more than he usually does. Ali's best round seemed to be the ninth, when he went up on his toes and snapped home at least 25 punishing jabs to Young's face. But then he went flatfooted again and, while landing some good rights, he was the target of several hard rights in the final three rounds when Young came on strong. It was the only time in the fight that Young was the actual aggressor and that lack of aggressiveness early on cost him dearly."
• On six occasions, Young ducked outside of the ropes when he was pressured by Ali. He did it in the seventh round, the eighth, the 12th, twice in the 13th, and once more in the 15th. When he did it in the 12th round, the referee ruled it a knockdown and began to count. Young pulled his head back into the ring at the count of two. Mark Kram of Sports Illustrated wrote: "It was unconscionable behavior for a man who wants the heavyweight championship of the world."
• The decision was loudly booed by the crowd. Mark Kram wrote: "There was no way anyone could justify taking the title from Ali."

Keep making you hate threads, they just confirm what you are.
You're an agenda driven fool, but that's hardly news

So in other words my point are solid and I showed you Ali should have lost 7 fights!!!. You clutch at bad judging, that is so you! I don't think your much if a score card guy. Produce you full round by round cards. Consider this an open challenge for the Norton 3 and Young fights.

How do you know who was seeping with who, and where ate the other fighters excuses?? You are not very fair and balanced , are you? No you're not. I already listed two men that Ali did not fight an could have beaten him in the 1970's.

The good jabbers Ali Fought are:

Jones, I had ani earning the nod 6-4 over the curser weight
Norton , who Ali lost to, I say Twice.
Young, and Young was robbed of a victory
Holmes who took it way on all winning all nine rounds.

Forget Liston, and his fix / quit job.

[Dr. Z]

To be honest I did not know that, but to be fair to Z, that's not much. To be fair to me, they did suck. I'm just razzing you a bit, that is a fair point.

Jeffries? I'm a Jeffries fan myself. I think a colorline era champion who at least fought a handful of black fighters prior to being champion made a better attempt at asserting their boxing ability while appeasing the racists of the era than those who didn't or only fought one or two. That said, yeah, he's guilty of drawing that line for the title. ... So not really a real champion imo.

Haha. I get it. Razzing me. But in Jeffries' case he was clearly the best from 1899-1902, color line or not. One can argue he could have fought Johnson but the purses he made for Corbett II and Fitzsimmons II were greater than the few press offers he had in the form of an open kind of offer , and these were not secure purse offers by power promoters!

So....by 1905 Johnson had lost to Mavin Hart and Jerrires opted to retire rather than destroy Hart. That was what the public thought and I never saw one good offer for Jeffreis to fight him! . I think he win's a match in his prime from 1899-1905 over Johsnon. Look as who he beat and who Johnson lost too. And there are four common opponents. In all four cases Jeffires cleray did better.

As I told Tony " ivich " Mcvey who dropped from answering my post directed toward him. Well Jack was a freemason too among other things. Gee so is Ivich. So I think that is a reason why he is so for this I want to be the only black champion , law breaker , and convict , back out of fights Jack Johnson. Besides he has a hatred of good white heavies such as Corbett, Jeffreis, Marciano and both Klitschko's.

[Ivich]

So in other words my point are solid and I showed you Ali should have lost 7 fights!!!. You clutch at bad judging, that is so you! I don't think your much if a score card guy. Produce you full round by round cards. Consider this an open challenge for the Norton 3 and Young fights.

How do you know who was seeping with who, and where ate the other fighters excuses?? You are not very fair and balanced , are you? No you're not. I already listed two men that Ali did not fight an could have beaten him in the 1970's.

The good jabbers Ali Fought are:

Jones, I had ani earning the nod 6-4 over the curser weight
Norton , who Ali lost to, I say Twice.
Young, and Young was robbed of a victory
Holmes who took it way on all winning all nine rounds.

Forget Liston, and his fix / quit job.

• The wideness of the scores is the real controversy in this fight while Ali being judged the winner is not. The stats show that Young outlanded Ali in some rounds where he landed a high number of punches such as round one and three, but over the course of the other 13 rounds he didn't outland Ali in every round, so the stats of Young landing 222 to Ali's 113 doesn't tell the story of the entire fight, merely that Young landed a high number in a handful of rounds. Ali could have been the justified winner by stoppage as Young ducked out of the ring on 6 occasions to avoid punishment. It was the equivalent of turning his back because he didn't want any more. Had the referee scored them all as knockdowns there would be no talk of controversy and when a fighter turns away from punches the only outcome should be a TKO victory.

Your points are solid?
What planet are you on!

" I would never allow a negro a chance to fight for the world's championship, and I advise all other champions to follow the same course." Jim Jeffries.

[Ivich]

Haha. I get it. Razzing me. But in Jeffries' case he was clearly the best from 1899-1902, color line or not. One can argue he could have fought Johnson but the purses he made for Corbett II and Fitzsimmons II were greater than the few press offers he had in the form of an open kind of offer , and these were not secure purse offers by power promoters!

So....by 1905 Johnson had lost to Mavin Hart and Jerrires opted to retire rather than destroy Hart. That was what the public thought and I never saw one good offer for Jeffreis to fight him! . I think he win's a match in his prime from 1899-1905 over Johsnon. Look as who he beat and who Johnson lost too. And there are four common opponents. In all four cases Jeffires cleray did better.

As I told Tony " ivich " Mcvey who dropped from answering my post directed toward him. Well Jack was a freemason too among other things. Gee so is Ivich. So I think that is a reason why he is so for this I want to be the only black champion , law breaker , and convict , back out of fights Jack Johnson. Besides he has a hatred of good white heavies such as Corbett, Jeffreis, Marciano and both Klitschko's.

My favourite fighter is Jack Dempsey.

Was he a good white fighter?lol

Dr Duck,you are a looney!

[Ivich]

So in other words my point are solid and I showed you Ali should have lost 7 fights!!!. You clutch at bad judging, that is so you! I don't think your much if a score card guy. Produce you full round by round cards. Consider this an open challenge for the Norton 3 and Young fights.

How do you know who was seeping with who, and where ate the other fighters excuses?? You are not very fair and balanced , are you? No you're not. I already listed two men that Ali did not fight an could have beaten him in the 1970's.

The good jabbers Ali Fought are:

Jones, I had ani earning the nod 6-4 over the curser weight
Norton , who Ali lost to, I say Twice.
Young, and Young was robbed of a victory
Holmes who took it way on all winning all nine rounds.

Forget Liston, and his fix / quit job.

Can you translate this into English?


N.B.
Zora Folley
Jimmy Ellis
Ernie Terrell
Billy Daniels
All excellent jabbers.

[Ivich]

Thanks. Vysotsky was something. His exhibition against Ali happened when he was well past his prime. Igor was a Russian ***. He also had an iron chin and was never KO's by punches in 185 fights. Nor was he knocked down. Though this is disputed. The thunderous punching Vysotsky. He was a man who could deliver a KO with either hand and at any distance. His full amateur record was 161–24. He had an iron head which had an abundance of calcium deposits or his brow. This caused some issues with cuts in the multiple day amateur torments.

He recently passed away in 2023. He and Stevenson were two very pro like amateurs, #1 at the time when Ali was on top. Politics prevented the fights. As I said Ali had no pro bouts vs these two nations. Russian and Cubans. If Ali fought them in the early to mid 1970's who knows? Imo both men were real talented would give Ali some real problems. Maybe even beat him or least have good showings vs him.

Stevenson lost to Bobick in the 70's.Nothing pro like about Stevenson ,he jabbed and threw the right when the opportunity arose,didn't work the body and didn't take punishment too well.The only professional thing about him was he was supported by the state and didn't have to work for a living.
Vysotsky was stopped by Jimmy Clark,beaten by Kokurin,Nato, and Rivero, and outpointed by Greg Page an inferior version of Ali,all in the 70's.
Tearing down Ali because he never fought men from communist countries where professional boxing was not allowed,[though they were full time boxers and supported financially by their respective states,] is the height of illogical lunacy and ,as such fittingly becomes a moron like yourself.

[Dr. Z]

Stevenson lost to Bobick in the 70's.Nothing pro like about Stevenson ,he jabbed and threw the right when the opportunity arose,didn't work the body and didn't take punishment too well.The only professional thing about him was he was supported by the state and didn't have to work for a living.
Vysotsky was stopped by Jimmy Clark,beaten by Kokurin,Nato, and Rivero, and outpointed by Greg Page an inferior version of Ali,all in the 70's.
Tearing down Ali because he never fought men from communist countries where professional boxing was not allowed,[though they were full time boxers and supported financially by their respective states,] is the height of illogical lunacy and ,as such fittingly becomes a moron like yourself.

Dude, both were great fighters and the losses you speak about were at his very end. Alis lost to Leon Spinks. Really do you think that would happen in Ali's prime? The topic of Ali vs. Prime Stevenson or Vyvotsky in the early to mid 1970's is a good topic to ponder if you know boxing.

At least if you focus on this you will talk about the thread in general.

Or you can continue to talk about Jim Jeffries who in 1910 was 35, fat and 6 years in inactive fought Jack Johnson. He offered Johnson a private fight in his prime 1902 , which Johnson refused! And he spoke about Johnson's as a potential opponents prior to 1906 when he was in his prime.

All facts.

If there was a 1904 Reno like purse for Jeffries vs. Johnson's ( As I told you he fought Fitz and Corbett for more money in 1902 and 1903 ) I'd bet six months pay that Jeffries would destroy the sub 200 pound man. If you would too if you are honest. Let's us test that theory out.

Do you think Johnson's win a 1905 match up between the two? Answer that question. Or will you duck it?

[Ivich]

Dude, both were great fighters and the losses you speak about were at his very end. Alis lost to Leon Spinks. Really do you think that would happen in Ali's prime? The topic of Ali vs. Prime Stevenson or Vyvotsky in the early to mid 1970's is a good topic to ponder if you know boxing.

At least if you focus on this you will talk about the thread in general.

Or you can continue to talk about Jim Jeffries who in 1910 was 35, fat and 6 years in inactive fought Jack Johnson. He offered Johnson a private fight in his prime 1902 , which Johnson refused! And he spoke about Johnson's as a potential opponents prior to 1906 when he was in his prime.

All facts.

If there was a 1904 Reno like purse for Jeffries vs. Johnson's ( As I told you he fought Fitz and Corbett for more money in 1902 and 1903 ) I'd bet six months pay that Jeffries would destroy the sub 200 pound man. If you would too if you are honest. Let's us test that theory out.

Do you think Johnson's win a 1905 match up between the two? Answer that question. Or will you duck it?

Ali is getting beat by the one dimensional Stevenson who never fought more than 3 rounds in his life ?
Ali when past prime, took the right hand of Earnie Shavers, yet Stevenson's will be too much for him?
After 6 rounds of fighting at a pace he wasnt used to Stevenson would be blowing like a cart horse ,pulling a heavy wagon on a steep incline.
Vyotsky floored Stevenson twice and stopped him.Savon beat Stevenson, Bobick beat him ,he was a three round amateur.
At the end?
Listen silly bollocks ,Stevenson lost to Bobick when he was 19 years old.

He lost to Vyotsky when he was 21 and24!

Know boxing? Unlike you I actually boxed!
Tell us what Jeffries purse was for the Corbett and Fitz fights,? I know but I bet you don't!

Jeffries had 18 months to prepare for the Johnson fight and he was down to fighting weight 9 months before the fight, he wasn't fat at all.
Prime for Prime Johnson beats Jeffries and Jeffries own manager said Jeffries was scared of Johnson.

Jeffries wanted no part of Johnson at any time when he was champion,he was, like you a serial ducker, but at least he was honest about it, unlike yourself who still haven't answered my questions from weeks ago!
You are a disgrace.