Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32102779]

Um yes the CBZ correct reports a match vs. Jeffries vs. Martin. It is reported by the press.





http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jeffries.htm


Let me get this correct, Jeffries should have fought Mcvey instead of Finnegan? How was old was McVey in 1900. 16 to 17 years old..

And Jeffries did in fact offer Johnson a private fight which Johnson refused! I think that happened in 1902-1903

There was no demand to him to fight Hart the #1 contender in 1905 after he beat Johnson. The money in the fight game dried up at the time, so Jeffries retried young. What's next he ducked Hart because he you think he was black?

PS: Jeffries was lineal champion he beat Griffin and if Griffin had somehow knocked him out, he's the next lineal champion.

- No charge you ignorant hater.

No comment from Ivich.? Gee I wonder why the coward has ducked away from these facts! Ivich

Here I am replying to his pet project. And I get silence from him! Again I challenge you to answer these questions and reply to the facts!

[Slugfester]

When I read Dante I don't judge The Divine Comedy by 20th century standards of morality. I don't judge early 20th century fighters by what they didn't do, either, but by what they did do. Why in hell would anyone expect Jefferies or Dempsey to be racial justice pioneers, or withhold their credit as champions because they did not make an "I Have A Dream" speech before signing a contract?

They were not racial justice pioneers, but mere boxers pounded in the head over and over, subject to the same prejudices and pressures as the rest of the country. I can't much blame boxers for ignoring blacks, I blame the norms of the country and times, which boxers had nothing to do with the creation of, but mindlessly followed like millions of others. Blame them.

Could they have fought them and gotten away with it? Most likely, yes. Should they then be condemned for not. Only very marginally. Blame the country, blame the times that sponsored it, not a single ant in the colony. One ant does nothing on its own, one normal ant is a follower subject to all the pressures of the colony.

The only way I can condemn them is to say they might have challenged themselves more, if it hadn't been for the rest of the country, since I don't expect pioneering social justice reforms out of boxers.

Well, I guess Jack Johnson was not a champion either, since he continued the tradition
as champion.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32104018]

No comment from Ivich.? Gee I wonder why the coward has ducked away from these facts! Ivich

Here I am replying to his pet project. And I get silence from him! Again I challenge you to answer these questions and reply to the facts!

The Griffin affair was a 4 round exhibition.Its a matter of public record.
Tell us what Jeffries purse was for defending against both Corbett and Fitzsimmons?

You have had a lot to say about it ,so tell us now what Jeffries got for those fights?
I'll answer that for you.
You don't ****ing know!

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Slugfester;n32104162]When I read Dante I don't judge The Divine Comedy by 20th century standards of morality. I don't judge early 20th century fighters by what they didn't do, either, but by what they did do. Why in hell would anyone expect Jefferies or Dempsey to be racial justice pioneers, or withhold their credit as champions because they did not make an "I Have A Dream" speech before signing a contract?

They were not racial justice pioneers, but mere boxers pounded in the head over and over, subject to the same prejudices and pressures as the rest of the country. I can't much blame boxers for ignoring blacks, I blame the norms of the country and times, which boxers had nothing to do with the creation of, but mindlessly followed like millions of others. Blame them.

Could they have fought them and gotten away with it? Most likely, yes. Should they then be condemned for not. Only very marginally. Blame the country, blame the times that sponsored it, not a single ant in the colony. One ant does nothing on its own, one normal ant is a follower subject to all the pressures of the colony.

The only way I can condemn them is to say they might have challenged themselves more, if it hadn't been for the rest of the country, since I don't expect pioneering social justice reforms out of boxers.

Well, I guess Jack Johnson was not a champion either, since he continued the tradition
as champion.

Quote.


Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette twice,the authorities vetoed the fight and threatened anyone who promoted it with loss of their licence.
Johnson signed to defend against both McVey and Langford in Australia,the fights were cancelled when public opinion turned against Johnson after he skipped bail.
This is all easily verified,and imo, people should get fully informed on the subject before wading in with their opinion.

If you want to blame anyone ,blame White racist America!

How great was Muhammad Ali?
imo He is the greatest heavyweight of all time.

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32104280]

The Griffin affair was a 4 round exhibition.Its a matter of public record.
Tell us what Jeffries purse was for defending against both Corbett and Fitzsimmons?

You have had a lot to say about it ,so tell us now what Jeffries got for those fights?
I'll answer that for you.
You don't ****ing know!

Why do you limit what I type. Because the truth smacks you in the face!




Um yes the CBZ correct reports a match vs. Jeffries vs. Martin. It is reported by the press. It was an early KO.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jeffries.htm

Let me get this correct, Jeffries should have fought Mcvey instead of Finnegan? How was old was McVey in 1900. 16 to 17 years old..

And Jeffries did in fact offer Johnson a private fight which Johnson refused! I think that happened in 1902-1903

There was no demand to him to fight Hart the #1 contender in 1905 after he beat Johnson. The money in the fight game dried up at the time, so Jeffries retried young. What's next he ducked Hart because he you think he was black?

PS: Jeffries was lineal champion he beat Griffin and if Griffin had somehow knocked him out, he's the next lineal champion.

- No charge you ignorant hater.



Now you " think " I don't know the purse? HAHAA Jeffries vs Fitz II. Yeah I don't ****ing know, you buffoon.




On July 25, 1902 at the San Francisco Athletic Club in San Francisco, California world heavyweight champion Jame J. Jeffries defended his title against the man he won it from in 1899, Robert Fitzsimmons. Jeffries, the far bigger man, knocked Fitzsimmons out in the 8th round. Jeffries had won the championship in 1899 from the extraordinary Bob Fitzsimmons at Coney Island, New York. Fighting out of a crouch, Jeffries had bullied his way inside the champion’s guard and battered his ribs, forcing a stoppage in the eleventh round. It took a few years for this rematch to happen, this time in San Francisco. While some took note of the 39-year-old Cornishman’s advancing years and figured the younger, stronger and much heavier champion would likely prevail, others eyed Fitzsimmons’s thirst for revenge. Rumor had it that the challenger was so determined to prevail, he planned to load his gloves with Plaster of Paris. “Let him do it,” said Jeffries. “I’ll flatten him anyway.” Jeffries had reason to be confident. The much bigger man, he outweighed Fitzsimmons by more than forty pounds. Despite this, Fitzsimmons took the fight to the champion in the early rounds and inflicted a vicious battering. As early as the second, Jeffries was bleeding from the challenger’s sharp punches, which soon broke Jeffries's nose and opened deep cuts around both eyes. But Jeffries was nothing if not tough, and he waited patiently for his opportunity to strike back. It came in the eighth round. After several blistering exchanges, Fitzsimmons inexplicably paused, lowered his guard, and spoke to Jeffries, taunting him. The champion’s response was a hard right to the belly followed by a thunderous left hook that put Fitzsimmons on the floor and ended the fight. When the challenger later approached the champion to congratulate him, Jeffries regarded Fitzsimmons through swollen, bleeding eyes and said, “You’re the most dangerous man alive.” Anyone looking at the combatants’ faces would have been astonished to learn the unmarked fighter was the loser, while the man sporting a visage marred by lumps and bloody gashes had proven victorious. It was later revealed that instead of gauze wraps, the Cornishman had used electrical tape and tossed his gloves in the crowd when Jeff wanted to see them. No objections had been made at the time of the fight. The manner of the bout’s sudden conclusion struck some in the assembled crowd as su****ious. Rumors of a “fix” began to circulate in the days following, though both boxers dismissed such speculation as absurd. “The fight was won fairly and to the best man belongs the laurels,” declared Fitzsimmons. Jeffries was a 10 to 4 favorite. The arena in which the fight took place was an octagonal building that could seat between 8,000 and 10,000. It was located at the corner of Valencia and Fourteenth streets, and had entrances at Valencia and Jessie streets. It had been recently built by the San Francisco Athletic Club. Ticket prices were $5, $7.50, $10, $15 and $20. The gate was $31,880. Jeffries' purse was $14,346 and Fitzsimmons' was $9,564. The San Francisco Athletic Club made $7,970. Out of its share, the club had to pay the expenses of the fight, including $500 for the referee. The Mansfield Newsreported the following: Robert Fitzsimmons has forfeited his last claim upon the heavyweight championship of the world. He stood off James J. Jeffries for eight rounds, and before receiving his quietus had astonished the thousands of spectators by his brilliant work. As early as the second round Fitzsimmons had Jeffries bleeding profusely from mouth and nose. Again and again he landed on his bulky opponent, getting away in such a clever manner that he roused the big crowd to enthusiastic cheering. It seemed indeed that Jeffries could scarcely stand the pace. But the 8th round came and after a series of hot exchanges Fitzsimmons paused with his guard down and spoke to the champion. The latter's reply was two terrific blows that saved him the championship. "Fitz is the greatest fighter of his weight that ever lived." James J. Jeffries "I fought the best I could and the best man won." Bob Fitzsimmons "From a referee's standpoint, the fight was as near perfect as a fight could be. There were no fouls—not even the semblance of a foul."




And finally Tony " Ivich " McVey answer this question. If there was a confirmed big purse for Jeffries vs. Johnson in 1905, who do you think wins? Both men were active and their primes then.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32104297]

Why do you limit what I type. Because the truth smacks you in the face!




Um yes the CBZ correct reports a match vs. Jeffries vs. Martin. It is reported by the press. It was an early KO.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jeffries.htm

Let me get this correct, Jeffries should have fought Mcvey instead of Finnegan? How was old was McVey in 1900. 16 to 17 years old..

And Jeffries did in fact offer Johnson a private fight which Johnson refused! I think that happened in 1902-1903

There was no demand to him to fight Hart the #1 contender in 1905 after he beat Johnson. The money in the fight game dried up at the time, so Jeffries retried young. What's next he ducked Hart because he you think he was black?

PS: Jeffries was lineal champion he beat Griffin and if Griffin had somehow knocked him out, he's the next lineal champion.

- No charge you ignorant hater.



Now you " think " I don't know the purse? HAHAA Jeffries vs Fitz II. Yeah I don't ****ing know, you buffoon.




On July 25, 1902 at the San Francisco Athletic Club in San Francisco, California world heavyweight champion Jame J. Jeffries defended his title against the man he won it from in 1899, Robert Fitzsimmons. Jeffries, the far bigger man, knocked Fitzsimmons out in the 8th round. Jeffries had won the championship in 1899 from the extraordinary Bob Fitzsimmons at Coney Island, New York. Fighting out of a crouch, Jeffries had bullied his way inside the champion’s guard and battered his ribs, forcing a stoppage in the eleventh round. It took a few years for this rematch to happen, this time in San Francisco. While some took note of the 39-year-old Cornishman’s advancing years and figured the younger, stronger and much heavier champion would likely prevail, others eyed Fitzsimmons’s thirst for revenge. Rumor had it that the challenger was so determined to prevail, he planned to load his gloves with Plaster of Paris. “Let him do it,” said Jeffries. “I’ll flatten him anyway.” Jeffries had reason to be confident. The much bigger man, he outweighed Fitzsimmons by more than forty pounds. Despite this, Fitzsimmons took the fight to the champion in the early rounds and inflicted a vicious battering. As early as the second, Jeffries was bleeding from the challenger’s sharp punches, which soon broke Jeffries's nose and opened deep cuts around both eyes. But Jeffries was nothing if not tough, and he waited patiently for his opportunity to strike back. It came in the eighth round. After several blistering exchanges, Fitzsimmons inexplicably paused, lowered his guard, and spoke to Jeffries, taunting him. The champion’s response was a hard right to the belly followed by a thunderous left hook that put Fitzsimmons on the floor and ended the fight. When the challenger later approached the champion to congratulate him, Jeffries regarded Fitzsimmons through swollen, bleeding eyes and said, “You’re the most dangerous man alive.” Anyone looking at the combatants’ faces would have been astonished to learn the unmarked fighter was the loser, while the man sporting a visage marred by lumps and bloody gashes had proven victorious. It was later revealed that instead of gauze wraps, the Cornishman had used electrical tape and tossed his gloves in the crowd when Jeff wanted to see them. No objections had been made at the time of the fight. The manner of the bout’s sudden conclusion struck some in the assembled crowd as su****ious. Rumors of a “fix” began to circulate in the days following, though both boxers dismissed such speculation as absurd. “The fight was won fairly and to the best man belongs the laurels,” declared Fitzsimmons. Jeffries was a 10 to 4 favorite. The arena in which the fight took place was an octagonal building that could seat between 8,000 and 10,000. It was located at the corner of Valencia and Fourteenth streets, and had entrances at Valencia and Jessie streets. It had been recently built by the San Francisco Athletic Club. Ticket prices were $5, $7.50, $10, $15 and $20. The gate was $31,880. Jeffries' purse was $14,346 and Fitzsimmons' was $9,564. The San Francisco Athletic Club made $7,970. Out of its share, the club had to pay the expenses of the fight, including $500 for the referee. The Mansfield Newsreported the following: Robert Fitzsimmons has forfeited his last claim upon the heavyweight championship of the world. He stood off James J. Jeffries for eight rounds, and before receiving his quietus had astonished the thousands of spectators by his brilliant work. As early as the second round Fitzsimmons had Jeffries bleeding profusely from mouth and nose. Again and again he landed on his bulky opponent, getting away in such a clever manner that he roused the big crowd to enthusiastic cheering. It seemed indeed that Jeffries could scarcely stand the pace. But the 8th round came and after a series of hot exchanges Fitzsimmons paused with his guard down and spoke to the champion. The latter's reply was two terrific blows that saved him the championship. "Fitz is the greatest fighter of his weight that ever lived." James J. Jeffries "I fought the best I could and the best man won." Bob Fitzsimmons "From a referee's standpoint, the fight was as near perfect as a fight could be. There were no fouls—not even the semblance of a foul."




And finally Tony " Ivich " McVey answer this question. If there was a confirmed big purse for Jeffries vs. Johnson in 1905, who do you think wins? Both men were active and their primes then.

The CBZ article says this about a Martin fight.Reported But Not Confirmed
Pollack after years of research finds no evidence that this fight ever happened.Jeffries never claimed that it did.

I never said Jeffries refused to defend against McVey in 1900 McVey did not turn pro until1902!


.Jeffries last defence against Munroe netted him just $7,848 .Are you telling us he would not have made more defending against Johnson and McVey in1905?
Pollack in his Jeffries bio , CBZ, and Box rec ALL SAY The Griffin 4 rounder was.AN EXHIBITION

Jeffries undertook to stop Griffin inside the 4 rounds distance or pay him a forfeit of $100.he failed to stop him and paid him the money END OF!

Stop trying to make out Jeffries would ever defend his title against a black man.he wouldn't, and he was open about it ,making public statements to that effect numerous times.So just stop with the lies!

Johnson was not in his prime in1905.
Prime for prime, he beats the ever loving **** out of the racist Jim Jeffries.

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32105191]

The CBZ article says this about a Martin fight.Reported But Not Confirmed
Pollack after years of research finds no evidence that this fight ever happened.Jeffries never claimed that it did.

I never said Jeffries refused to defend against McVey in 1900 McVey did not turn pro until1902!


.Jeffries last defence against Munroe netted him just $7,848 .Are you telling us he would not have made more defending against Johnson and McVey in1905?
Pollack in his Jeffries bio , CBZ, and Box rec ALL SAY The Griffin 4 rounder was.AN EXHIBITION

Jeffries undertook to stop Griffin inside the 4 rounds distance or pay him a forfeit of $100.he failed to stop him and paid him the money END OF!

Stop trying to make out Jeffries would ever defend his title against a black man.he wouldn't, and he was open about it ,making public statements to that effect numerous times.So just stop with the lies!

Johnson was not in his prime in1905.
Prime for prime, he beats the ever loving **** out of the racist Jim Jeffries.

Idiot! McVey took a break from boxing and did not fight in 1905! He was distraught by his loss to Martin in 1904 and QUIT boxing for a while returning to the ring in 1906! DUH.

Again when did he receive an offer by a known promoter, what was Jeffries take of it, and when should McVey have been given a title shot vs Jeffries? As a green teenager? Dates please.

Fool Griffin was floored twice and opted to survive the four rounds by doing so! The same man beat Jack Johnson!

"In summing up my fights, throughout my career, there were none, even in the championship bouts, which were harder than those with Griffen (sic), and I believe that the greatest punishment I ever received in the ring was at the hands of Griffen." - Jack Johnson.

The same man was Ko'd by Jeffries earlier and badly beaten in a four round affair.

Jeffries did fight a black man as lineal champion and he did fight Jack Johnson as an old washed up and 6 years inactive man. So your quote means nothing. Listing a time based quote where one fighter says one thing but in other quotes talk another and in fact when the MONEY is up changes yet again. What did Jeffries actually do? And he did offer Johnson a private fight before, rememberer?

The data reports the fight, Pollack opted not to do so. His decision. I'm more than sure he would agree with me that Jeffries would TKO Johnson in 1904- 1905.

Sure Jack Jonhson who had been fighting for over 10 years by 1905 and was 26+ when he lost to Marvin Hart would beat Jim Jeffries in 1905.

Sure......

Like I said the data tells the truth, you do not.

You are an utter moron.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32105238]

Idiot! McVey took a break from boxing and did not fight in 1905! He was distraught by his loss to Martin in 1904 and QUIT boxing for a while returning to the ring in 1906! DUH.

Again when did he receive an offer by a known promoter, what was Jeffries take of it, and when should McVey have been given a title shot vs Jeffries? As a green teenager? Dates please.

Fool Griffin was floored twice and opted to survive the four rounds by doing so! The same man beat Jack Johnson!



The same man was Ko'd by Jeffries earlier and badly beaten in a four round affair.

Jeffries did fight a black man as lineal champion and he did fight Jack Johnson as an old washed up and 6 years inactive man. So your quote means nothing. Listing a time based quote where one fighter says one thing but in other quotes talk another and in fact when the MONEY is up changes yet again. What did Jeffries actually do? And he did offer Johnson a private fight before, rememberer?

The data reports the fight, Pollack opted not to do so. His decision. I'm more than sure he would agree with me that Jeffries would TKO Johnson in 1904- 1905.

Sure Jack Jonhson who had been fighting for over 10 years by 1905 and was 26+ when he lost to Marvin Hart would beat Jim Jeffries in 1905.

Sure......

Like I said the data tells the truth, you do not.

You are an utter moron.

Still lying that Jeffries was willing to defend against a black man ,despite all the multitude of evidence to the contrary.

In September 1903 right after McVey kod Martin in1 round a promoter offered Jeffries $16,000 to defend against him.
For a poster who wasnt going to reply to my posts anymore you're doing okay.lol
Do us a favour top yourself!

[Slugfester]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32104287]

When I read Dante I don't judge The Divine Comedy by 20th century standards of morality. I don't judge early 20th century fighters by what they didn't do, either, but by what they did do. Why in hell would anyone expect Jefferies or Dempsey to be racial justice pioneers, or withhold their credit as champions because they did not make an "I Have A Dream" speech before signing a contract?

They were not racial justice pioneers, but mere boxers pounded in the head over and over, subject to the same prejudices and pressures as the rest of the country. I can't much blame boxers for ignoring blacks, I blame the norms of the country and times, which boxers had nothing to do with the creation of, but mindlessly followed like millions of others. Blame them.

Could they have fought them and gotten away with it? Most likely, yes. Should they then be condemned for not. Only very marginally. Blame the country, blame the times that sponsored it, not a single ant in the colony. One ant does nothing on its own, one normal ant is a follower subject to all the pressures of the colony.

The only way I can condemn them is to say they might have challenged themselves more, if it hadn't been for the rest of the country, since I don't expect pioneering social justice reforms out of boxers.

Well, I guess Jack Johnson was not a champion either, since he continued the tradition
as champion.

Quote.


Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette twice,the authorities vetoed the fight and threatened anyone who promoted it with loss of their licence.
Johnson signed to defend against both McVey and Langford in Australia,the fights were cancelled when public opinion turned against Johnson after he skipped bail.
This is all easily verified,and imo, people should get fully informed on the subject before wading in with their opinion.

If you want to blame anyone ,blame White racist America!

How great was Muhammad Ali?
imo He is the greatest heavyweight of all time.

You have a lot of advice for what other people should do.. What is your advice to yourself? I just have to be curious.

I just did blame White racist America--for anything applicable and the whole color line, except I overlooked the two fights apparently signed for American soil. Australia is not applicable, as far as I know--excuse me for not being fully informed, if America made Australians cancel a fight.

Since you never have quite grasped it--People (including myself) do not come here to tiptoe around until you feel they are fully informed and are finally allowed to open their mouths and Wade In. They do and they should wade right in, with what they think they know. If wrong, they will probably be corrected.

I am never offended by a correction or a fact, except those gift wrapped with a bow snot.

[BattlingNelson]

I think there's a comfortable gap between him and whoever is considered the second best HW ever. His resume and overall accomplishments as well as his qualities as a fighter are incredibly vast.

Agreed. I have Ali as the greatest HW ever and noone has a resume with as many IBHOF wins as he has. Furthermore his societal impact ads lenghts to his accomplishments.

I'd like to see anyone argue for someone having a better resume than Ali.