Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Ivich]

Right, call it the Red line. Or in Lewis' case the black English line. Lines Ali did not cross. Facts are facts, and Ali should have lost officially 7 times. Sometimes to clearly lesser men. Ali would have been defeated at least one more time he fought them all. The fighters ( the communists or the black english ) are on top of boxing now and may very well have been champions in the 1970's

Which Eastern Europeans did Ali duck?
Which Black British heavies did he duck?
Should have lost officially7 times!
Ridiculous assertions by the Forum's resident absurdity.Dr Duck.

[N/A]

Just great enough as a boxer, tends to be very overrated, especially when people call him the greatest - there is simply no one single greatest, but a list of people that are so. And he was also a bit of a punk as a person. His character outside of the ring brought him that "inside-the-ring greatness" to an extent and that is not a positive.

[Ivich]

Just great enough as a boxer, tends to be very overrated, especially when people call him the greatest - there is simply no one single greatest, but a list of people that are so. And he was also a bit of a punk as a person. His character outside of the ring brought him that "inside-the-ring greatness" to an extent and that is not a positive.

Care to elaborate on his "punk personality"?

[Marchegiano]

I think Eastern Europeans have a long history of sucking at boxing and needed the Americanization that came in the 90s to not suck anymore.

There's a huge cultural shift that happened at that time that boxing fans like to conveniently forget about. For some reason we like to play like as if the EEs didn't suck until the 2000s, but were just unable to compete because of politics. Yeah... except boxing, modern Queensbury under sanctioning bodies, predates the commie movement as much as it post dates.

They ****** through the entire dark ages period.

They ****** though the entire industrialization period.

They ****** through the entire modernization period.

They stopped sucking after they were released from autocratic authoritarian control and allowed something resembling democracy and the freedom to experience goods and services from non-commie states.




John L, Dempsey, Ali, did not fight EEs because there was no EE good enough for them back then. Same reason why not a single fighter in the top tens of the HW division has fought anyone from Burma. Burma sucks at boxing right now. If in the future something happens to Myanmar and Burmese boxers become dope, good for them, but no one is facing them ATM because they have no fighters good enough for an international competition at any level let alone world champ honors.


Just to head this off, I don't see blacks in the same position because during all era applicable blacks were seen as great fighters who were not allowed to fight for the titles. People did then and do now praise fighters like Peter the Great and such. There is no EE analog for this. There is no crop of great EEs who were barred. There's only a period when the EEs decided losing wasn't fun so they didn't play. They ain't even got a Tio. Who would have gotten his ass stomped by Ali for the record.

over 230's ****** at boxing

Black Englishmen ****** at boxing

Cuba had one good HW who wasn't good enough to risk the pathetic commie stipend to go pro in the states like so, so, so many Cubans have done.

Ain't no one fighting no Tuvans because Tuvans ain't good at boxing yet.

I don't think we should hold past characters to present and new characters. That's ******.



It's like pointing out modern batman's gadgets are more technologically advanced now than they were in the 30s. Duh, yeah, but that doesn't make 30s Batman less Batman.



Ali = Arguable GOAT. Who ****** too much to fight him can't ever change that.



Also, for the record, Ali would **** up the slow tards of today. Fury's like a fat, slow, inaccurate, dirty, Ali with sore ankles, he'd get ****d.

[Ivich]

I think Eastern Europeans have a long history of sucking at boxing and needed the Americanization that came in the 90s to not suck anymore.

There's a huge cultural shift that happened at that time that boxing fans like to conveniently forget about. For some reason we like to play like as if the EEs didn't suck until the 2000s, but were just unable to compete because of politics. Yeah... except boxing, modern Queensbury under sanctioning bodies, predates the commie movement as much as it post dates.

They ****** through the entire dark ages period.

They ****** though the entire industrialization period.

They ****** through the entire modernization period.

They stopped sucking after they were released from autocratic authoritarian control and allowed something resembling democracy and the freedom to experience goods and services from non-commie states.




John L, Dempsey, Ali, did not fight EEs because there was no EE good enough for them back then. Same reason why not a single fighter in the top tens of the HW division has fought anyone from Burma. Burma sucks at boxing right now. If in the future something happens to Myanmar and Burmese boxers become dope, good for them, but no one is facing them ATM because they have no fighters good enough for an international competition at any level let alone world champ honors.


Just to head this off, I don't see blacks in the same position because during all era applicable blacks were seen as great fighters who were not allowed to fight for the titles. People did then and do now praise fighters like Peter the Great and such. There is no EE analog for this. There is no crop of great EEs who were barred. There's only a period when the EEs decided losing wasn't fun so they didn't play. They ain't even got a Tio. Who would have gotten his ass stomped by Ali for the record.

over 230's ****** at boxing

Black Englishmen ****** at boxing

Cuba had one good HW who wasn't good enough to risk the pathetic commie stipend to go pro in the states like so, so, so many Cubans have done.

Ain't no one fighting no Tuvans because Tuvans ain't good at boxing yet.

I don't think we should hold past characters to present and new characters. That's ******.



It's like pointing out modern batman's gadgets are more technologically advanced now than they were in the 30s. Duh, yeah, but that doesn't make 30s Batman less Batman.



Ali = Arguable GOAT. Who ****** too much to fight him can't ever change that.



Also, for the record, Ali would **** up the slow tards of today. Fury's like a fat, slow, inaccurate, dirty, Ali with sore ankles, he'd get ****d.

Among others Ali beat a Belgian, a Russian ,and a Pole, to get his Olympic Gold Medal.Was it his fault they didn't turn pro?
The OP has a long ,and confirmed history of tearing down great champions.
The only ones safe from his constant assassinations of reputations are;
Wlad
Vitali
Jeffries
They can do no wrong.

[N/A]

I think Eastern Europeans have a long history of sucking at boxing and needed the Americanization that came in the 90s to not suck anymore.

There's a huge cultural shift that happened at that time that boxing fans like to conveniently forget about. For some reason we like to play like as if the EEs didn't suck until the 2000s, but were just unable to compete because of politics. Yeah... except boxing, modern Queensbury under sanctioning bodies, predates the commie movement as much as it post dates.

They ****** through the entire dark ages period.

They ****** though the entire industrialization period.

They ****** through the entire modernization period.

They stopped sucking after they were released from autocratic authoritarian control and allowed something resembling democracy and the freedom to experience goods and services from non-commie states.

Shocking lack of historical knowledge.

[Dr. Z]

Which Eastern Europeans did Ali duck?
Which Black British heavies did he duck?
Should have lost officially7 times!
Ridiculous assertions by the Forum's resident absurdity.Dr Duck.

YES you idiot! Ali officially lost 5 times, and he did not win the 3rd Norton fight or the Jimmy Young fight. Hence he should have officially lost SEVEN times. You continue to watch boxing with your eyes wide shut.

You're absurd. The punch stats on the Young fights read:

In the stats department, Young landed 222 punches to Ali's 113. Young outlanded Ali 65–27 in jabs and 187–86 in power punches. The punch disparity highlighted the booing at the judges' decisions. Computbox points out that Young landed 41.1 percent while Ali only 18.9 percent of the shots.


Okay now if Ali fought Sevenson who was a big powerful man with a good ( Ali has trouble defending this punch ) and a sizzling light out type of right hand. Not to mention great Size and reach.


And Igor Vysotsy the thunderous punching man with a style similar to Joe Frazier. Except he was physically stronger. Ali who could not stop Chavalo from getting to him, nor control a good jabber on any stage of his career ( Jones, Norton, Young and Holmes ) who would in trouble and in danger of losing!

But as history shows he did not fight these two or any other Cuban or Russian. Got it?

Did he really win the Shaver s fight, or did the judges and promoters favor the name Ali for " business reasons " like they clearly did in the 3rd Norton and Young fight?

[mrbig1]

We have to remember when Ali fought Foreman and Lyle, he was way past his prime. When people say Ali is overrated, they point to the Leon Spinks fight. they sum up a career based on one fight way past his prime. They do the same thing with Duran. can anyone imagine Ali, Duran Monzon being overrated. I think it safe to say these people knows nothing about boxing.

[Ivich]

YES you idiot! Ali officially lost 5 times, and he did not win the 3rd Norton fight or the Jimmy Young fight. Hence he should have officially lost SEVEN times. You continue to watch boxing with your eyes wide shut.

You're absurd. The punch stats on the Young fights read:

In the stats department, Young landed 222 punches to Ali's 113. Young outlanded Ali 65–27 in jabs and 187–86 in power punches. The punch disparity highlighted the booing at the judges' decisions. Computbox points out that Young landed 41.1 percent while Ali only 18.9 percent of the shots.


Okay now if Ali fought Sevenson who was a big powerful man with a good ( Ali has trouble defending this punch ) and a sizzling light out type of right hand. Not to mention great Size and reach.


And Igor Vysotsy the thunderous punching man with a style similar to Joe Frazier. Except he was physically stronger. Ali who could not stop Chavalo from getting to him, nor control a good jabber on any stage of his career ( Jones, Norton, Young and Holmes ) who would in trouble and in danger of losing!

But as history shows he did not fight these two or any other Cuban or Russian. Got it?

Did he really win the Shaver s fight, or did the judges and promoters favor the name Ali for " business reasons " like they clearly did in the 3rd Norton and Young fight?

Yes he lost against Frazier having only18 rounds of boxing under his belt in the previous 4 years!He subsequently beat Frazier twice.

He lost against Norton when the night before, he had two women in his bed.he subsequently beat Norton twice.

He lost to Spinks. And he beat him in the rematch.
And he lost to Holmes and Berbick when he had no business being in a ring
News Flash punch stats do not decide fights.
Nor does sticking your head and torso out of the ring,[ which is a foul,] to avoid punches win you fights ,or any friends.
Ali beat Chuvalo out of sight twice.
Ellis
Folley
Mathis
Mac Foster
Bugner x2
Lidton
Daniels
Terrell
Were all good jabbers,how did they do against him?

Which Cuban or Russian should he have fought?

Nobody thought Shavers beat Ali.

• Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
• Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
• Judge: Eva Shain 9-6

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

Ali v Young.

• The Associated Press reported: "Ali seemed content to toy in the first four rounds, doing very little fighting. He then began coming on in the fifth round and started landing with power, although he still missed much more than he usually does. Ali's best round seemed to be the ninth, when he went up on his toes and snapped home at least 25 punishing jabs to Young's face. But then he went flatfooted again and, while landing some good rights, he was the target of several hard rights in the final three rounds when Young came on strong. It was the only time in the fight that Young was the actual aggressor and that lack of aggressiveness early on cost him dearly."
• On six occasions, Young ducked outside of the ropes when he was pressured by Ali. He did it in the seventh round, the eighth, the 12th, twice in the 13th, and once more in the 15th. When he did it in the 12th round, the referee ruled it a knockdown and began to count. Young pulled his head back into the ring at the count of two. Mark Kram of Sports Illustrated wrote: "It was unconscionable behavior for a man who wants the heavyweight championship of the world."
• The decision was loudly booed by the crowd. Mark Kram wrote: "There was no way anyone could justify taking the title from Ali."

Keep making you hate threads, they just confirm what you are.
You're an agenda driven fool, but that's hardly news!

[Willie Pep 229]

YES you idiot! Ali officially lost 5 times, and he did not win the 3rd Norton fight or the Jimmy Young fight. Hence he should have officially lost SEVEN times. You continue to watch boxing with your eyes wide shut.

You're absurd. The punch stats on the Young fights read:

In the stats department, Young landed 222 punches to Ali's 113. Young outlanded Ali 65–27 in jabs and 187–86 in power punches. The punch disparity highlighted the booing at the judges' decisions. Computbox points out that Young landed 41.1 percent while Ali only 18.9 percent of the shots.


Okay now if Ali fought Sevenson who was a big powerful man with a good ( Ali has trouble defending this punch ) and a sizzling light out type of right hand. Not to mention great Size and reach.


And Igor Vysotsy the thunderous punching man with a style similar to Joe Frazier. Except he was physically stronger. Ali who could not stop Chavalo from getting to him, nor control a good jabber on any stage of his career ( Jones, Norton, Young and Holmes ) who would in trouble and in danger of losing!

But as history shows he did not fight these two or any other Cuban or Russian. Got it?

Did he really win the Shaver s fight, or did the judges and promoters favor the name Ali for " business reasons " like they clearly did in the 3rd Norton and Young fight?

Yes, history will explain in detail why Ali could not have have fought any these men.

Why would you choose 'history' as support for your susposed 'duck' argument when it is 'history' that explains exactly why Ali would never have had any possible chance to fight an EE fighter.

Simply refering to past facts, is NOT history. You should not use 'history' in such a frivous manner.