What's the real story behind Floyd Patterson and his subjugation to Sonny Liston

[billeau2]

We still have no idea how old Liston was, but the estimate was that he was close to 40 when he faced Ali. Which makes his performance against Wepner insane to me.

Age has a lot of variables to consider. Genetics is a big one, also how much trauma, hard work, resistance, has broken the body down. And in boxing, a big one is if a fighter always keeps in shape, or has to traumatize the body into training sporadically. Liston was imo similar to Johnson in that he had good genetics, a great build to start with, and seemed to understand very well how to keep the body strong. Liston was the first person I can think of, who did back and neck exerscizes regularly. We now know how vital the core components of the body are to strength.

So Liston managed to keep himself ready to go, though it is no substitute for youth.

[Willie Pep 229]

I use Wiki to clear these things up because it has such an incredible range. People often mock it, but if you are an intelligent person, and look at most sources for basic information... like the book series "for Dummys" etc, these sources are just too basic. Wiki gives one the opportunity to look at a whole spectrum of information and explore a topic further. It also is an open source, a concept that just warms my ****els! I love the idea that people can create a knowledge thread that is self policing.

Reads like someone wanted to parse journeyman into two parts.

How about we go the other way?

Call the accomplished "gatekeeper" (as Wiki describes him) a "journeyman" as we always have.

For the lower group we can call them "ham & eggers." Far more colorful and we don't t have to diminish the respect of the time proven term "journeymen."

Na! I'm not on board. 'Gatekeeper' is use too often elsewhere for boxing to try and make it part of the boxing lexicon.

Anyway, what gate are they watching? The championship?

[billeau2]

Reads like someone wanted to parse journeyman into two parts.

How about we go the other way?

Call the accomplished "gatekeeper" (as Wiki describes him) a "journeyman" as we always have.

For the lower group we can call them "ham & eggers." Far more colorful and we don't t have to diminish the respect of the time proven term "journeymen."

Na! I'm not on board. 'Gatekeeper' is use too often elsewhere for boxing to try and make it part of the boxing lexicon.

Anyway, what gate are they watching? The championship?

Yeah Journeyman covers a lot... I always took "the gate" to mean, those who are allowed to fight the champ, who enter the office after finding a way past the secretary trying to keep them out (analogy). As in finding a way to beat the troll off the bridge and cross to the champ's domain. But I never heard the term describe anything but a journeyman...So its not like the term distinguishes a real difference. So I am with you on this one. Just have no idea where the term came from. Lets do a thread maybe someone else has an idea.

[The D3vil]

He would be nothing without his anatomical attributes. Ivo Karlovic of Boxing.

There's nothing impressive about him if you make his arms normal.

He's a slow moving gate keeper with robot arms who was lucky to face a very weak WC in his era.

Dude, you're thinking about the old Liston, who fought Ali

Younger listen was a lot quicker.

[Tanakasensei]

Name a great fighter Sonny Liston beat. Name one.


Ali thought he (Ali) was the greatest fighter who ever lived when he beat Liston, but the truth is Liston just wasn't that good.

Whenever he faced someone who had any ring IQ, like Machen, Liston punched air most of the fight. Only winning due to his jab
If Liston had actual talents he would do the same job to Machen as Ingemar Johansson did.. got rid of him in the first round.

[Tanakasensei]

Yeah Journeyman covers a lot... I always took "the gate" to mean, those who are allowed to fight the champ, who enter the office after finding a way past the secretary trying to keep them out (analogy). As in finding a way to beat the troll off the bridge and cross to the champ's domain. But I never heard the term describe anything but a journeyman...So its not like the term distinguishes a real difference. So I am with you on this one. Just have no idea where the term came from. Lets do a thread maybe someone else has an idea.

Gatekeeper is the last hurdle for someone before he becomes champ.

Gatekeepers are imposing but they aren't truly great fighters. They don't reach the pinnacle. They fade in fights.
Ray Mercer described himself as a gatekeeper.

[Tanakasensei]

Age has a lot of variables to consider. Genetics is a big one, also how much trauma, hard work, resistance, has broken the body down. And in boxing, a big one is if a fighter always keeps in shape, or has to traumatize the body into training sporadically. Liston was imo similar to Johnson in that he had good genetics, a great build to start with, and seemed to understand very well how to keep the body strong. Liston was the first person I can think of, who did back and neck exerscizes regularly. We now know how vital the core components of the body are to strength.

So Liston managed to keep himself ready to go, though it is no substitute for youth.

Those neck excercises have given Mike Tyson permanent injury... They are based on a misconception of neck strength being related to jaw endurance..

The science say that knockout endurance is related to the blood vessels in the Brain. How quickly they shut you off. Has nothing to do with anatomy.

if someone has had concussions, then that may override the resistance of those blood vessels.

But if you compare full healthy, non traumatized brains, it's all blood vessels.

And how much you can take to the body without shutting down is also genetics.

[billeau2]

Those neck excercises have given Mike Tyson permanent injury... They are based on a misconception of neck strength being related to jaw endurance..

The science say that knockout endurance is related to the blood vessels in the Brain. How quickly they shut you off. Has nothing to do with anatomy.

if someone has had concussions, then that may override the resistance of those blood vessels.

But if you compare full healthy, non traumatized brains, it's all blood vessels.

And how much you can take to the body without shutting down is also genetics.

Jaw endurance? No such thing except x rated. knockouts are caused by a few things, some related to the carteroid, specifically in maintaining homeostasis regarding blood to the brain. Others are concussion related, the brain bouncing off the skull walls...

There are multiple reasons to strengthen the neck. Do you ever look at what you post?

[billeau2]

Gatekeeper is the last hurdle for someone before he becomes champ.

Gatekeepers are imposing but they aren't truly great fighters. They don't reach the pinnacle. They fade in fights.
Ray Mercer described himself as a gatekeeper.

Well... I have heard a lot of opinions on the thread, and I am open minded... But wrong is wrong and a gate keeper IS NOT a last hurdle to becoming a champ, that would be a contender... I am sorry but that is just not correct. And what does endurance have to do with this designation?

[DooGee#33]

Sonny Liston is complicated. Nothing is simple when rehashing his career.

For whatever it's worth it took the greatest heavyweight in the history of boxing to beat him. If your being intellectually honest ask yourself how many heavyweights in history could have cut the ring down and had a chance vs the version of Ali that Sonny faced? 22 years old, lightening fast and hard to catch.

Add to it the fact that Liston was barely in 3 round shape that night in Miami.