Carlos Monzon. How great was he? Feel free to post a fight.

[billeau2]

I really wish that legitimate issues could be addressed regarding some of the opinions held on this thread. I have reached out to some of you to ask for clarification, and nobody has responded... My interest is not in promoting any agenda, but there are some things being said that make no sense to me. Am I missing something?

1. To say that Monzon fought smaller fighters one has to consider the average size of fighters that other middle weights fought. Not the level of competition, and NOT how big Monzon was in the ring.

2. To say Monzon was a bully, used his size and reach, etc... that is what he was supposed to do.

3. Monzon's competition, has to be evaluated from the perspective of The general level of skills one sees with fighters at that time, along with specific qualities for very good opponents... Hence to say some of the greater fighters he fought were in their twilight years makes sense... But does not, on its own, tell the complete story.

4. Two points: For a great fighter to clean out the division, fighting guys who were great champs and on their way out, is normal.
To say Tommy Hearns was a natural anything is a strawman. Hearns was a big guy, and like a lot of big guys, he grew out of Welter weight at some point and into Middleweight. Nothing "natural" or "unnatural" about this process. Considering the murderer's row of great fighters in Middle at that time, one cannot simply ascribe Hearn's difference in performance based on his skill sets carrying up.

[Ivich]

On Leonard, Hearns and Duran, anyone of those opponents would be the best Monzon fought! You know this, if you disagree, name them! I suspect you will shut up and avoid this point as usual... but you brought it up.


And those three men all had significant wins at middleweight and above. They were great pound for pound fighters. The other of Hagler's opponents are decent contenders no more.

Moznon did not face good comotriton, and who he face was generally much older,smaller and not as famous. As punchers Leonard and Hearns were better than Monzon faced. Mugbi is in that discussion too

What is it with you? You sure like fighters who beat up their wife's. IMO, the men who did that are scumbags.

I judge fighters by what they do in the ring.

Leonard had not fought for 3 years and had never fought a middleweight.
Hearns had faced just two.
Duran had never fought at middleweight.

billeau has eloquently answered your post,though why he should bother with a poster who types this
Gobblegy**** below is beyond me?

Moznon did not face good comotriton, and who he face was generally much older,smaller and not as famous. As punchers Leonard and Hearns were better than Monzon faced. Mugbi is in that discussion too

[GhostofDempsey]

Agree about Hearns, But Ill ask you what I asked Doctor Z: Is there any evidence that Monzon fought... on some sort of average, smaller opponents? Your a smart poster so I know you will understand the difference between the following two propositions: Please do me the honor of understanding the distinction here...

1. Monzon, a large Middle weight by some act of providence, or otherwise, wound up fighting a sample of smaller MiddleWeights, as compared to most Middle Weight champions we put on a short list. Or...

2. Monzon, who had a freakish build of being lanky, strong, and wiry, with great reach stats, used these advantages to become a great Middle weight champion.

And just assuming that Griffith, Naples and Valdez were enough of a sample to state the first proposition, we can agree to disagree. Martinez and Williams were two other Middle weights that had similar attributes as Monzon. I mean there are Middle Weights built like Monzon.

Monzon was nearly 6' tall, which was tall for a MW in that era. His opponents averaged about 5'8". Certainly not his fault, and to be fair to Monzon, he didn't duck anyone while he was champion. The unfortunate truth is, he fought in an era when the best MWs were aging out or just starting out. The two best names on his resume were actually better at welter than MW. They were past their respective primes, especially Napoles. In fact, his rematch with Griffith, most if not all of the newspapers had Griffith winning that fight. His corner thought he had won. The crowd boo'd the decision. It took unusually long for the decision to be announced.

Monzon had 80 fights before he fought a big name outside of Argentinean journeymen. A washed up Benvenuti. Rodrigo Valdez just wasn't a great fighter and never defeated a great fighter. He in fact ducked Hagler.

[billeau2]

Monzon was nearly 6' tall, which was tall for a MW in that era. His opponents averaged about 5'8". Certainly not his fault, and to be fair to Monzon, he didn't duck anyone while he was champion. The unfortunate truth is, he fought in an era when the best MWs were aging out or just starting out. The two best names on his resume were actually better at welter than MW. They were past their respective primes, especially Napoles. In fact, his rematch with Griffith, most if not all of the newspapers had Griffith winning that fight. His corner thought he had won. The crowd boo'd the decision. It took unusually long for the decision to be announced.

Monzon had 80 fights before he fought a big name outside of Argentinean journeymen. A washed up Benvenuti. Rodrigo Valdez just wasn't a great fighter and never defeated a great fighter. He in fact ducked Hagler.

I do think we can look at many reigns of a championship fighter and find the good and the bad... It is also fairly typical for a clearing of the division to take place... Like when Marciano fought great fighters who had come up to grab what was percieved as "low hanging fruit." Men like Ezzard Charles... You did clarify the nature of Monzon's advantages...

Monzon was in a similar situation as Fullmer when he fought a greatly diminished Robinson. When I watched the Griffith fight, it looked to me like it could go either way. I agree about the best names on his resume being compromised by time and perhaps moving up in weight... Certainly one could say this about Naples.

With that said I also believe the average Middle Weight at that time was well skilled. Much like Louis, who lined up the "bum of the month club" lol, those bums often turned out to be strong fighters, not great, but able bodied.

[Dr. Z]

The point about Leanard, Hearns and Duran... How is this relevant to the issue of an opponent's size? And n ad Hominum attack regarding how someone could be a fan of Monzon... that is just very silly and uncalled for. My father was a conductor for a major orchestra, conservatory and my dad was a ***. Long before the whole "Woke" thing, he caught flack because he played some of Wagner's arraingements. Wagner was a **** sympathiser... My dad felt that people, all people, should not be deprived of Wagner's talents because of Wagner's short comings. You cannot throw together all aspects of a person's life to decide what you should appreciate UNLESS you could possibly know every shortcoming and every virtue of every fighter, everywhere...

It is a good point. And Monzon's opponents are not equal to them. Halger's lower weight guys hit harder and were more skilled in comparison to Monzon's. And their ring records were better! The beat more ring magazine rated opponents, a gold stand of quality in comparison Monzon's men. It true. That is how I compare them. If you have another way, I am here to listen.

- Dr. Z.

[Ivich]

It is a good point. And Monzon's opponents are not equal to them. Halger's lower weight guys hit harder and were more skilled in comparison to Monzon's. And their ring records were better! The beat more ring magazine rated opponents, a gold stand of quality in comparison Monzon's men. It true. That is how I compare them. If you have another way, I am here to listen.

- Dr. Z.

Now many middleweights did Leonard beat? ONE
How many of any quality did Mugabi beat? NONE
How many ranked middleweights did Antuofermo beat ? ONE
How many ranked middleweights did Duran beat? ONE


Griffith beat 5

[Willie Pep 229]

IMO saying Monzon ducked Hagler is disingenuous. Hagler appears in the Ring rankings after Monzon quits. ****

If we are going to start claiming that a fighter is a ducker because he retired than we have a very long list of duckers to reevaluate.

Let's start with Marciano. Did he duck Patterson? I don't think so. Tunney, Sharkey? Jeffries, Hart? Lewis, Wald?

**** Anyone notice that Hagler goes from not being ranked in 1976 to being ranked #1 the following year? (1977)

During that period 1976-1977 Hagler has only one win over a known fighter, Willie Monroe (2-1 against a not ranked fighter). He doesn't beat Briscoe until the following year, 1978. So how does he go from not ranked to #1 without defeating a ranked fighter?

Can someone clear this up for me?

[Dr. Z]

Now many middleweights did Leonard beat? ONE
How many of any quality did Mugabi beat? NONE
How many ranked middleweights did Antuofermo beat ? ONE
How many ranked middleweights did Duran beat? ONE


Griffith beat 5

Leonard beat opponents above Middleweight! And he is far greater than anyone Monzon beat.


Mugabi was a better puncher than just about anyone that Monzon beat.


Antuofermo was a highly ranked contender beating Brisoce referee him? He drew with Monzon in their first fight, and in their second match stunned him. The the press says:

In his first fight with Carlos Monzon in Argentina, Briscoe walked away with a draw. He said getting a draw in Argentina is getting a victory in the United States. In this rematch with Monzon for the title, Briscoe badly stunned the champion in the 9th round, but failed to score a knockout. Monzon always respected Briscoe, and when the champion was New York, he gave Briscoe a warm greeting

Vito also drew with Halger.


Duran was also better than anyone Monzon beat and like Leonard won a middleweight title.


Now, you continue to compare Hagler's competition to Monzons! I say it's better and so do 90% of serious boxing fans.

NEXT.

[Ivich]

Leonard beat foes above Middleweight! And he is far grater than anyone Monzon beat.


Mumbai was a better puncher than just about anyone that Monzon beat.


Antuofermo was a highly ranked contender beating Brisoce referee him? He drew with Mozon in the there first fight, and in there scond down the press says:

In his first fight with Carlos Monzon in Argentina, Briscoe walked away with a draw. He said getting a draw in Argentina is getting a victory in the United States. In this rematch with Monzon for the title, Briscoe badly stunned the champion in the 9th round, but failed to score a knockout. Monzon always respected Briscoe, and when the champion was New York, he gave Briscoe a warm greeting

Vito also drew with Halger.


Duran was also better than anyone Monzon beat and like Leonard on a middleweight title.

Now, you continue to compare Hagler's competition to Monzons! I say its better and so do 90% of serious boxing fans.

NEXT.

Leonard beat ONE middleweight.
Who did MUGABI ko at middleweight?

GRATER.BRISOCE.MOZON.SCOND.HALGER?
Your posts are gibberish FFS Use spell check

[Dr. Z]

Leonard beat ONE Middle

I do not have time for silly nonsense anymore. But I'll tell you what. I will create a poll when I have a chance. Who fought greater competition, Hagler or Monzon? Be sure to take the poll and say who you choose in the thread.