Carlos Monzon. How great was he? Feel free to post a fight.

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32012287]
Now many middleweights did Leonard beat? ONE
How many of any quality did Mugabi beat? NONE
How many ranked middleweights did Antuofermo beat ? ONE
How many ranked middleweights did Duran beat? ONE


Griffith beat 5[/QUOTE

Ivich what did you say? Oh See.

Leonard had not fought for 3 years and had never fought a middleweight.
Hearns had faced just two.
Duran had never fought at middleweight.
- Ivich

Go argue with yourself. I'm not sure who will win.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32017931]

Now many middleweights did Leonard beat? ONE
How many of any quality did Mugabi beat? NONE
How many ranked middleweights did Antuofermo beat ? ONE
How many ranked middleweights did Duran beat? ONE


Griffith beat 5[/QUOTE

Ivich what did you say? Oh See.



Go argue with yourself. I'm not sure who will win.

When you have no answers your response is entirely predictable .

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32018353]

When you have no answers your response is entirely predictable .

Who won the argument with your self? Ivich, Tony, Tonto62, or Mcvey ( all people who you seen in the mirror )

Ivich wrote

Now many middleweights did Leonard beat? ONE
How many of any quality did Mugabi beat? NONE
How many ranked middleweights did Antuofermo beat ? ONE
How many ranked middleweights did Duran beat? ONE

Leonard had not fought for 3 years and had never fought a middleweight.
Hearns had faced just two.
Duran had never fought at middleweight.
- Ivich

Go argue with yourself. I'm not sure who will win.

Duran never fought a middle weight? Are the walls where you dwell well padded?

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32018375]

Who won the argument with your self? Ivich, Tony, Tonto62, or Mcvey ( all people who you seen in the mirror )








Go argue with yourself. I'm not sure who will win.

Duran never fought a middle weight? Are the walls where you dwell well padded?

The question was how many RANKED middleweights did they beat? In Duran's case it was ONE.


Comparing title competition.

Hagler [not Halger]

67 fights 62-3-2
Reign 6.5years
14 defences.
Won13
Lost 1
Two of his challengers never beat a ranked middleweight.

Three of his challengers only beat 1 ranked middle.

His challengers have 22 ranked wins between them.

Hagler beat 3 men who held the middleweight title.



Monzon
99 fights 87-3-9

Reign 6.2 years

12 defences

Won 12

Lost none
All of his challengers except Napoles, who was the reigning Welter weight champion, beat ranked middleweights.Napoles beat Griffith but at 147lbs.

His challengers have a total of 26 ranked middles between them.

NB I am counting fights within a couple of pounds of the middleweight limit.

Monzon beat 3 men who held the middleweight title.

The eye test.
Hagler looks more fan friendly to me.Monzon could appear rather robotic.

Title fights.
Hagler could only draw with Antuofermo whom I think he should have beaten convincingly.

Hagler sc****d by the past prime ex light weight Duran in an underwhelming performance giving far too much respect to the Panamanian.

Hagler lost his title to a 3 years retired Leonard who had never fought at160lbs
Hagler defended his title outside the US ONCE..



Monzon's closest fights as champ were his last 2 with Valdez for which he was 33 &34.

Monzon defended his title outside his home country 10 times,5 times in his opponents back yard.

Monzon retired as champion,having never lost a title fight.

There isn't a hairs breath between them as far as ability goes imo,both are ,along with Robinson and Greb in the top 4 all time at the weight,

Some may prefer one, some the other.it's much too close to argue about.
Hagler is easier on the eye imo, but has some strategically underwhelming performances,the same cannot be said of Monzon who controlled all his title fights.
Legacy and resume take your pick.
Head to Head.I Iike Monzon to win a decision.
Despite your silly, infantile comments, which only served to show you can't read,
I've endeavoured to give a balanced opinion, giving you respect that you definitely do not warrant.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32018399]

The question was how many RANKED middleweights did they beat? In Duran's case it was ONE.


Comparing title competition.

Hagler [not Halger]

67 fights 62-3-2
Reign 6.5years
14 defences.
Won13
Lost 1
Two of his challengers never beat a ranked middleweight.

Three of his challengers only beat 1 ranked middle.

His challengers have 22 ranked wins between them.

Hagler beat 3 men who held the middleweight title.



Monzon
99 fights 87-3-9

Reign 6.2 years

12 defences

Won 12

Lost none
All of his challengers except Napoles, who was the reigning Welter weight champion, beat ranked middleweights.Napoles beat Griffith but at 147lbs.

His challengers have a total of 26 ranked middles between them.

NB I am counting fights within a couple of pounds of the middleweight limit.

Monzon beat 3 men who held the middleweight title.

The eye test.
Hagler looks more fan friendly to me.Monzon could appear rather robotic.

Title fights.
Hagler could only draw with Antuofermo whom I think he should have beaten convincingly.

Hagler sc****d by the past prime ex light weight Duran in an underwhelming performance giving far too much respect to the Panamanian.

Hagler lost his title to a 3 years retired Leonard who had never fought at160lbs
Hagler defended his title outside the US ONCE..



Monzon's closest fights as champ were his last 2 with Valdez for which he was 33 &34.

Monzon defended his title outside his home country 10 times,5 times in his opponents back yard.

Monzon retired as champion,having never lost a title fight.

There isn't a hairs breath between them as far as ability goes imo,both are ,along with Robinson and Greb in the top 4 all time at the weight,

Some may prefer one, some the other.it's much too close to argue about.
Hagler is easier on the eye imo, but has some strategically underwhelming performances,the same cannot be said of Monzon who controlled all his title fights.
Legacy and resume take your pick.
Head to Head.I Iike Monzon to win a decision.
Despite your silly, infantile comments, which only served to show you can't read,
I've endeavoured to give a balanced opinion, giving you respect that you definitely do not warrant.

Great post!

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32018399]

The question was how many RANKED middleweights did they beat? In Duran's case it was ONE.


Comparing title competition.

Hagler [not Halger]

67 fights 62-3-2
Reign 6.5years
14 defences.
Won13
Lost 1
Two of his challengers never beat a ranked middleweight.

Three of his challengers only beat 1 ranked middle.

His challengers have 22 ranked wins between them.

Hagler beat 3 men who held the middleweight title.



Monzon
99 fights 87-3-9

Reign 6.2 years

12 defences

Won 12

Lost none
All of his challengers except Napoles, who was the reigning Welter weight champion, beat ranked middleweights.Napoles beat Griffith but at 147lbs.

His challengers have a total of 26 ranked middles between them.

NB I am counting fights within a couple of pounds of the middleweight limit.

Monzon beat 3 men who held the middleweight title.

The eye test.
Hagler looks more fan friendly to me.Monzon could appear rather robotic.

Title fights.
Hagler could only draw with Antuofermo whom I think he should have beaten convincingly.

Hagler sc****d by the past prime ex light weight Duran in an underwhelming performance giving far too much respect to the Panamanian.

Hagler lost his title to a 3 years retired Leonard who had never fought at160lbs
Hagler defended his title outside the US ONCE..



Monzon's closest fights as champ were his last 2 with Valdez for which he was 33 &34.

Monzon defended his title outside his home country 10 times,5 times in his opponents back yard.

Monzon retired as champion,having never lost a title fight.

There isn't a hairs breath between them as far as ability goes imo,both are ,along with Robinson and Greb in the top 4 all time at the weight,

Some may prefer one, some the other.it's much too close to argue about.
Hagler is easier on the eye imo, but has some strategically underwhelming performances,the same cannot be said of Monzon who controlled all his title fights.
Legacy and resume take your pick.
Head to Head.I Iike Monzon to win a decision.
Despite your silly, infantile comments, which only served to show you can't read,
I've endeavoured to give a balanced opinion, giving you respect that you definitely do not warrant.

You were obvisouly wrong on Duran .

Duran had never fought at middleweight. -Ivich

You were wrong on Briscoe's age when he fought Hagler too until I corrected you!

You keep repeating known facts as if they excuse your numerous errors.

Your only one way in your opinion. You list Hagler's opponents moving up, but you don't say the same for Monzon? Double standards, you are the king of them.

Really fair and honorable of you!

Sure, let's talk about Antuofermo, whom Halger received an unkind draw from the judges ( If you really think Hagler did not win that one, I'd like to see your score card ! ) But you don't talk about Monzon's draws to much less men? Why???

Double standards!

- Dr. Z

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32020609]

You were obvisouly wrong on Duran .




You were wrong on Briscoe's age when he fought Hagler too until I corrected you!

You keep repeating known facts as if they excuse your numerous errors.

Your only one way in your opinion. You list Hagler's opponents moving up, but you don't say the same for Monzon? Double standards, you are the king of them.

Really fair and honorable of you!

Sure, let's talk about Antuofermo, whom Halger received an unkind draw from the judges ( If you really think Hagler did not win that one, I'd like to see your score card ! ) But you don't talk about Monzon's draws to much less men? Why???

Double standards!

- Dr. Z

Simple answer to reply to a simpleton.

I HAVENT SEEN MONZON' S DRAWS AND NEITHER HAVE YOU!

As I explained to you, TWICE close fights in Argentina are customarily ruled draws!You didnt correct me I did that myself.


Some thought Hagler deserved the win,some thought Antuofermo did.

That is the very definition of a draw!

• Judge: Dalby Shirley 142-144
• Judge: Duane Ford 145-141
• Judge: Hal Miller 143-143

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 143-142 Antuofermo
• Unofficial KO Magazine scorecard: 144-141 Hagler

Neither Duran or Leonard had fought a middleweight before when they challenged Hagler.
Leonard in fact had not fought for 3 years!
Leonard fought one Ring ranked middleweight =Hagler
Duran fought one Ring ranked middleweight =Barkley


Now show some courtesy to Billeau and stop ****ing up his thread ,go and **** up your own sorry thread!

[QueensburyRules]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32020652]

Simple answer to reply to a simpleton.

I HAVENT SEEN MONZON' S DRAWS AND NEITHER HAVE YOU!

As I explained to you, TWICE close fights in Argentina are customarily ruled draws!You didnt correct me I did that myself.


Some thought Hagler deserved the win,some thought Antuofermo did.

That is the very definition of a draw!

• Judge: Dalby Shirley 142-144
• Judge: Duane Ford 145-141
• Judge: Hal Miller 143-143

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 143-142 Antuofermo
• Unofficial KO Magazine scorecard: 144-141 Hagler

Neither Duran or Leonard had fought a middleweight before when they challenged Hagler.
Leonard in fact had not fought for 3 years!
Leonard fought one Ring ranked middleweight =Hagler
Duran fought one Ring ranked middleweight =Barkley


Now show some courtesy to Billeau and stop ****ing up his thread ,go and **** up your own sorry thread!

- - Leonard spent a year in private training before the Marv fight that included unofficial fights against a plethora of fighters sworn to secrecy lest they lose their post fight guarantees.

Show some courtesy towards those who know as opposed to you kowtowing to legends that you know not...

[Dr. Z]

Some thought Hagler deserved the win,some thought Antuofermo did.

That is the very definition of a draw!

• Judge: Dalby Shirley 142-144
• Judge: Duane Ford 145-141
• Judge: Hal Miller 143-143

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 143-142 Antuofermo
• Unofficial KO Magazine scorecard: 144-141 Hagler

Neither Duran or Leonard had fought a middleweight before when they challenged Hagler.
Leonard in fact had not fought for 3 years!
Leonard fought one Ring ranked middleweight =Hagler
Duran fought one Ring ranked middleweight =Barkley


Now show some courtesy to Billeau and stop ****ing up his thread ,go and **** up your own sorry thread!

Listen you dumb man, you are still spewing forth false hoods and I am tired of correcting you.

Duran fought one ranked middleweight? Hagler says B()ll &#it

Leonard beat men above 160!

You forgot to list Hearns. All three men were better than Monzon beat

I show Billeau plenty of respect. You however are known to close out threads by the moderator. Several of them. That is the danger of this thread.

If you think Vito won the fight, you are even ******er than I thought. Post your card or the fight and list your round by round scoring. That if you want to be viewed as credible.

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=QueensburyRules;n32022945]

- - Leonard spent a year in private training before the Marv fight that included unofficial fights against a plethora of fighters sworn to secrecy lest they lose their post fight guarantees.

Show some courtesy towards those who know as opposed to you kowtowing to legends that you know not...

OK so this guy and article is the source Wikipedia references regarding the 'secret fights' but this source offers no proof for its claim, just a statement of 'fact.'

For now, it has to be considered merely a factoid that the secret fights occurred. Someone needs to step up and say it is so.

What is most damning is that he does cite his other quotes and statements, but not this one.

Is this guy respected? Is he considered to be in-the-know?


Memories of Hagler-Leonard, 30 Years Later

April 4, 2017
By Bernard Fernandez