Carlos Monzon. How great was he? Feel free to post a fight.

[Dr. Z]

I could if I was sufficiently bothered, copy your posts from the Forum you are banned, from these prove what I say is true and that once again you are lying.

ie That Monzon never fought punchers, that Valdez was not a puncher and that Monzon fought mostly small welters .
Griffith was a very strong fighter built like a mini Hercules he had been fighting at middleweight for 13 years and had been middleweight champion twice and was strong enough and good enough to beat **** Tiger.
Valdes was 5 ft 8in and had been a middleweight for7 years in one of his fights with Monzon he was half a pound the lighter man,in the other he was half pound the heavier,you talk nonsensical twaddle. Both Griffith and Valdez were the number one contenders when Monzon defended against them ,

Middleweight champions 5feet 8 or under.
Greb 5. 8
Walker 5 . 7
Cerdan 5. 6 1/2
Zale 5. 7 1/2
Lamotta 5 . 8
Tiger 5. 8
Basilio 5. 6 1/2
Thil 5 . 8
Duran 5.7
Alvarez 5.8

In the light of these facts your spurious argument ,[which I destroyed a few years ago on the other forum ,] is once again blown completely out of the water!
Two of Monzon's challengers, Bogs and Mundine competed successfully at light heavyweight.

You're a complete fool!

IDIOT, you are comparing ring lineal champions and one PED user to Monzon's little guys he fought for title defenses?? Really? You said middleweight champions which Duran really was not the #1 guy at middleweight ever.

Get a new act.

Your lying again. The board can see that.

[Ivich]

IDIOT, you are comparing ring lineal champions and one PED user to Monzon's little guys he fought for title defenses?? Really? You said middleweight champions which Duran really was not the #1 guy at middleweight ever.

Get a new act.

Your lying again. The board can see that.

How tall is Canelo ? How much did he weigh when he won the middleweight title?
Did Duran win the WBA middleweight title or did he not?
Monzon's shorter challengers

Moyer 5'8". no3
Briscoe 5'8" .no7
Griffith 5'8".no1
Griffith 5'8" .no1
Valdez 5' 8". no1
Valdez 5'8". no 2
Napoles5'71/2"Reigning Welter Champ

Should Monzon not have defended against them on the grounds they were not tall enough? lol
His taller challengers
Benvenuti 5'11". no1
Bouttier 5'91/2" no4
Bouttier 5 '91/2" no4
Mundine 5 11 1/2". no7.

Are the following five feet 8 or under middleweights all time greats?
Greb
Walker
Lamotta
Zale
Cerdan
Tiger
Hagler

Did the following names go onto beat men up to light heavyweight and in two cases heavyweights?
Greb
Walker
Lamotta
Tiger

"Monzon liked to fight short guys"?
He had three non title fights whilst, champ one of his opponents was 6' 4", one was 5'9",
the other was 6 '3" !
If he preferred little ,short guys why did he fight those three?
You do know he won the title from Benvenuti who was 5'11" ?
Monzon defended his title 12 times, 4 of those times were against the number one challenger.

Did Cotto 5'7" win the title from Martinez 5'10"?
Did Martinez 5'10" win the title from Pavlik 6'2 1/2"?
Did Duran 5'7" win the title from Barclay?
Did 5'8" Tiger beat 5'11" Benvenuti?
Did Basilio 5'6 1/2"win the title from Robinson 5'11"?
These are just a few examples.
Given that the answers to all of them is YES.

WTF is your point?

[Ivich]

I am not saying some the past middleweight champions you listed 75-100 years ago were not short! By the way moron, Duran was not one of them. Duran was a welter weight and light weight fighter. That is his best stuff.

How long ago was it when, Cotto, Fullmer,Tiger,Basilio ,Alvarez,Duran ,Hagler were middleweight champions?

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32009565]

How long ago was it when, Cotto, Fullmer,Tiger,Basilio ,Alvarez,Duran ,Hagler were middleweight champions?[/QUOTE

Are the following five feet 8 or under middleweights all time greats?
Greb
Walker
Lamotta
Zale
Cerdan
Tiger
Hagler

- Ivich

You see, you keep trying to switch your point in an effort to be right for a change.

With the exception of Hagler who was a natural middleweight, all of the above fighters were active before I was born. And Hagler wasn't 5'8' tall or shorter. Your posts have constant errors and moving of the goal posts. I mostly reply to you for comical resons

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32009594]

How long ago was it when, Cotto, Fullmer,Tiger,Basilio ,Alvarez,Duran ,Hagler were middleweight champions?[/QUOTE





You see, you keep trying to switch your point in an effort to be right for a change.

With the exception of Hagler who was a natural middleweight, all of the above fighters were active before I was born. And Hagler wasn't 5'8' tall or shorter. Your posts have constant errors and moving of the goal posts. I mostly reply to you for comical resons

irth name	Marvin Nathaniel Hagler
***	male
nationality	USA
stance	southpaw
height	5′ 8″ / 173cm
reach	75″ / 191cm

[Dr. Z]

How tall is Canelo ? How much did he weigh when he won the middleweight title?
Did Duran win the WBA middleweight title or did he not?
Monzon's shorter challengers

Moyer 5'8". no3
Briscoe 5'8" .no7
Griffith 5'8".no1
Griffith 5'8" .no1
Valdez 5' 8". no1
Valdez 5'8". no 2
Napoles5'71/2"Reigning Welter Champ

It addition to being short all of those name had limited reaches. Okay I guess for welter weight. But short for middleweight.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32009594]

How long ago was it when, Cotto, Fullmer,Tiger,Basilio ,Alvarez,Duran ,Hagler were middleweight champions?[/QUOTE





You see, you keep trying to switch your point in an effort to be right for a change.

With the exception of Hagler who was a natural middleweight, all of the above fighters were active before I was born. And Hagler wasn't 5'8' tall or shorter. Your posts have constant errors and moving of the goal posts. I mostly reply to you for comical resons

irth name	Marvin Nathaniel Hagler
***	male
nationality	USA
stance	southpaw
height	5′ 8″ / 173cm
reach	75″ / 191cm

What does them being active before you were born have to do with anything?
Were Cotto.Hagler,Duran,Alvarez,all champs, active before you were born?



How about the following Champs and contenders whose retirement year follows their height?

Corro 5 '8" 1989 Champ
Sibson 5' 7 1/2" 1988 Contender
Hamsho 5'8" 1989 Contender
Antuofermo 5' 7 1/2" 1985 Champ

Were they active after you were born or not?


I mostly reply to you to expose your deceitful lies,and because I hate your guts!

Now I'll let Travestny humiliate on the other threads,you're not worth a cup of cold piss!

[Ivich]

It addition to being short all of those name had limited reaches. Okay I guess for welter weight. But short for middleweight.

Klaus reach 68"
Greb One of the greatest middles ever reach 71"
Walker ditto the above, a man who held the heavyweight champion to a draw reach 67"
Zale reach 69"
Cerdan reach 69"
Fullmer reach 69"
Lamotta reach 67"
Basilio reach 6"8
Graziano reach 68 1/2"
They above seemed to manage rather well with short reaches!

Monzon's shorter challengers
Griffith reach 72"
Valdez reach 70"
Moyer reach 72"
Briscoe reach 71"

All longer reaches than those great champions above them!
You've been exposed on the height myth, and now on the reach one.

What next ,the colour of their boxing trunks? lol

[QueensburyRules]

Turpin was probably stronger than Monzon as well as quicker. Can't underestimate awkwardness. Randy had a weird style to go with his physical attributes. Ken Norton shouldn't have been able to outbox Ali at least twice but he had the same things going for him that Randy did.
Emile was an exceptional fighter but Nino probably gets mauled by the best version of Turpin in my view.

- - Ken Norton is infinitely better than Turpin.

Like I said, not knocking Turpin, but he was considerably lesser to the champions of his day much like Neon Leon was.

[billeau2]

It addition to being short all of those name had limited reaches. Okay I guess for welter weight. But short for middleweight.

Ok to just play peacemaker here: What do you hope to establish here? Hagler had different "size" gifts... He fought at a different sweet spot, etc. If we just assume the category of "size" is too general a quality, then you could perhaps make the point that you think height and reach made Monzon special... IF, he did not face other tall opponents... OR, if Monzon USED those qualities to great advantage, making him a great fighter, which is kind of where we started.

You really cannot say Monzon faced a sample of opponents with limited reach... You might hold the opinion that Monzon used his reach to great effect... I am not trying to get anyone to concede a point here, but saying Monzon did not face punchers, and fought a sample of middle weights smaller, shorter, etc would have to be a comparison of these qualities to what other middle weight champs fought. I know you did not make this comparison... So your point only makes sense if you say Monzon used his qualities to great effect, which he did...