Carlos Monzon. How great was he? Feel free to post a fight.

[Dr. Z]

Ok to just play peacemaker here: What do you hope to establish here? Hagler had different "size" gifts... He fought at a different sweet spot, etc. If we just assume the category of "size" is too general a quality, then you could perhaps make the point that you think height and reach made Monzon special... IF, he did not face other tall opponents... OR, if Monzon USED those qualities to great advantage, making him a great fighter, which is kind of where we started.

You really cannot say Monzon faced a sample of opponents with limited reach... You might hold the opinion that Monzon used his reach to great effect... I am not trying to get anyone to concede a point here, but saying Monzon did not face punchers, and fought a sample of middle weights smaller, shorter, etc would have to be a comparison of these qualities to what other middle weight champs fought. I know you did not make this comparison... So your point only makes sense if you say Monzon used his qualities to great effect, which he did...

Well Hagler was a top 5 all time natural middleweight great. And he was a puncher and a southpaw that had a good 75" reach for a middleweight. He should never be compared with Monzon's short, limited reach opponents. Not that you are , but somebody here is. And then he attempts to tie them in with great fighters of the past. As I said they were mostly blown up lower weight fighters, Monzon's best that is.


Monzon used his assets against these small men. I don't see any fast handed opponents, very few " big " neutral middle wights. Asside from maybe two guys next to no punchers. And which fighters did they KO?

This is not to say I always pick one of these types to beat Monzon, but it is to say that was never proven!

[Dr. Z]

Klaus reach 68"
Greb One of the greatest middles ever reach 71"
Walker ditto the above, a man who held the heavyweight champion to a draw reach 67"
Zale reach 69"
Cerdan reach 69"
Fullmer reach 69"
Lamotta reach 67"
Basilio reach 6"8
Graziano reach 68 1/2"
They above seemed to manage rather well with short reaches!

Monzon's shorter challengers
Griffith reach 72"
Valdez reach 70"
Moyer reach 72"
Briscoe reach 71"

All longer reaches than those great champions above them!
You've been exposed on the height myth, and now on the reach one.

What next ,the colour of their boxing trunks? lol

You continue to tie in Monzon's opponents with these all time middle weight greats. That is you first issue. I don't think you can be helped. If you're looking for that, nobody is bitting.

[billeau2]

Well Hagler was a top 5 all time natural middleweight great. And he was a puncher and a southpaw that had a good 75" reach for a middleweight. He should never be compared with Monzon's short, limited reach opponents. Not that you are , but somebody here is. And then he attempts to tie them in with great fighters of the past. As I said they were mostly blown up lower weight fighters, Monzon's best that is.


Monzon used his assets against these small men. I don't see any fast handed opponents, very few " big " neutral middle wights. Asside from maybe two guys next to no punchers. And which fighters did they KO?

This is not to say I always pick one of these types to beat Monzon, but it is to say that was never proven!

You are using the term "natural middleweight" in an ambigious fashion. If you say Hagler was an incredible fighter, and that Monzon never fought a fighter that caliber in their prime, Ok... But it has nothing to do with the "reach" of any set of opponents.

I don't know how you get to this idea that Monzon fought limited comp... He fought some of the best fighters ever, maybe not at prime, and maybe Naples came up from Welter, to face Monzon, but it is natural for Welters to come up a division... It does not follow they are inferior at Middle weight. No punchers? Seriously? Aside from two guys? that makes no sense.

If you watch fighters from that era they were very skilled opponents. Liston often gets a similar knock, and I bet my last dollar that many such "knockers" (Dolly parton aside) never actually watched a fighter like WhiteHurst, or Marshall... The things fighters did in the ring, the drive displayed, etc. I would take a small heavyweight from Liston's era to do a number on fighters in today's division.

[billeau2]

You continue to tie in Monzon's opponents with these all time middle weight greats. That is you first issue. I don't think you can be helped. If you're looking for that, nobody is bitting.

He is showing you that the notion that Monzon fought smaller middle weights is false and he is right. Monzon had reach and he used it to great effect... Marciano had a Toyota engine! with super charger! and he used it to great effect... Marciano seldom fought fighters that could pressure like he could, does that mean he fought inferior fighters, I am talking SIMPLY by virtue of his opponents inability to be a Joe Frazier! lol. OR did marciano use his gifts and persevere against other fighters using their gifts?

[Ivich]

Well Hagler was a top 5 all time natural middleweight great. And he was a puncher and a southpaw that had a good 75" reach for a middleweight. He should never be compared with Monzon's short, limited reach opponents. Not that you are , but somebody here is. And then he attempts to tie them in with great fighters of the past. As I said they were mostly blown up lower weight fighters, Monzon's best that is.


Monzon used his assets against these small men. I don't see any fast handed opponents, very few " big " neutral middle wights. Asside from maybe two guys next to no punchers. And which fighters did they KO?

This is not to say I always pick one of these types to beat Monzon, but it is to say that was never proven!

Hagler fought;
Leonard a natural welterweight.
Hearns a natural welterweight.
Antuofermo,a natural light middle weight.
Mugabi a natural light middleweight.

He lost to Leonard.

Hearns and Mugabi gave him wars.

Antuofermo drew with him in their first fight.

He won a close decision over 32years old ex lightweight Duran.

Monzon's record against the smaller guys he fought looks better than that imo.

Anyone say Hagler defended against smaller guys?
Walker
Garcia
Robinson
Basilio
Cerdan
Griffith
Jackson
McCallum
Duran
Antuofermo
Leonard
Hearns
Trinidad
Cotto
Alvarez

All boxed at lower weights before winning titles at middleweight.
Does that detract from their abilities at160 pounds?
You have no case,no argument,no logic ,and no sense!

[GhostofDempsey]

Hagler fought;
Leonard a natural welterweight.
Hearns a natural welterweight.
Antuofermo,a natural light middle weight.
Mugabi a natural light middleweight.

He lost to Leonard.

Hearns and Mugabi gave him wars.

Antuofermo drew with him in their first fight.

He won a close decision over 32years old ex lightweight Duran.

Monzon's record against the smaller guys he fought looks better than that imo.

Anyone say Hagler defended against smaller guys?

Hearns was not a natural welter. He grew out of that weight rather quickly and none of his best wins were at 147.

Monzon feasted on smaller opponents whose best weights were in fact 147; Griffith and Napoles to name two and they were past their prime when they fought him.

[Ivich]

Hearns was not a natural welter. He grew out of that weight rather quickly and none of his best wins were at 147.

Monzon feasted on smaller opponents whose best weights were in fact 147; Griffith and Napoles to name two and they were past their prime when they fought him.

RUBBISH!
Hearns boxed at welterweight for over 4 years!

Griffith was the number1 contender for both his fights with Monzon.
Going into the first fight he had won his last ten.
For the second he had won 6 drawn 1 and lost one on a dsq.

Monzons taller challengers.

His taller challengers
Benvenuti 5'11". no1
Bouttier 5'91/2" no4
Bouttier 5 '91/2" no4
Mundine 5 11 1/2". no7.

Griffith was just 1 3/4lbs the lighter man in their 2nd fight.
Bouttier was the same weight for one fight and just half a pound lighter in the other.
Valdez was 3/4lbs lighter for one of their fights and 3/4lbs heavier for the other.
Tonna was 1/4lb heavier
Licata was 3/4lbs heavier
Briscoe was 3/4lbs lighter
Moyer was the same weight.
Benvenuti was 1/2lbs heavier.
Bogs was1/4lb heavier .
I corrected you on this BS before,and I expect others have too.
What was it , a week ago when you were telling me how great Lamotta's win over the 16 pounds lighter Robinson was?
Hypocritical double standards at their most blatant! LOL

[billeau2]

Hearns was not a natural welter. He grew out of that weight rather quickly and none of his best wins were at 147.

Monzon feasted on smaller opponents whose best weights were in fact 147; Griffith and Napoles to name two and they were past their prime when they fought him.

Agree about Hearns, But Ill ask you what I asked Doctor Z: Is there any evidence that Monzon fought... on some sort of average, smaller opponents? Your a smart poster so I know you will understand the difference between the following two propositions: Please do me the honor of understanding the distinction here...

1. Monzon, a large Middle weight by some act of providence, or otherwise, wound up fighting a sample of smaller MiddleWeights, as compared to most Middle Weight champions we put on a short list. Or...

2. Monzon, who had a freakish build of being lanky, strong, and wiry, with great reach stats, used these advantages to become a great Middle weight champion.

And just assuming that Griffith, Naples and Valdez were enough of a sample to state the first proposition, we can agree to disagree. Martinez and Williams were two other Middle weights that had similar attributes as Monzon. I mean there are Middle Weights built like Monzon.

[Slugfester]

Hearns was about as much a natural welterweight as I am a natural 10 pounder. He was an unnatural welterweight who probably had to work hard to make the limit, which might also be the reason he was unable to absorb as much punishment as other ATGs.

[Ivich]

Hearns was about as much a natural welterweight as I am a natural 10 pounder. He was an unnatural welterweight who probably had to work hard to make the limit, which might also be the reason he was unable to absorb as much punishment as other ATGs.

He was a welterweight for over 4 years ,and won the title there in one of his greatest victories.
I rate him in the top five all time at147.
Hearns didn't absorb punches any better when he went up in weight,you either have a chin or you don't,imo