Carlos Monzon. How great was he? Feel free to post a fight.

[Slugfester]

Cuevas was a great victory? Cuevas wouldn't make the top 50 realistic welterweight list IMO.

If he fought there 4 years that only means to me that weight was hard to make for 4 years. You usually have evidence. Show it if you do, son. Four years is rather slim evidence to me. I am always capable of changing my view for the right evidence.

[Ivich]

Cuevas was a great victory? Cuevas wouldn't make the top 50 realistic welterweight list IMO.

If he fought there 4 years that only means to me that weight was hard to make for 4 years. You usually have evidence. Show it if you do, son. Four years is rather slim evidence to me. I am always capable of changing my view for the right evidence.

Yes it was a great victory and where you place Cuevas historically is no concern of mine.
Where is your evidence that the weight was hard for him to make?
Son?

[Ivich]

Hearns was not a natural welter. He grew out of that weight rather quickly and none of his best wins were at 147.

Monzon feasted on smaller opponents whose best weights were in fact 147; Griffith and Napoles to name two and they were past their prime when they fought him.

Little Emille Griffith,the number one contender that Monzon took advantage of.
Built like a sawed off Light Heavy!

72 in reach,41 in chest ,2 inches bigger than Marciano's,14in forearms,16 1/2 in biceps.Tiny man! LOL

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Anything wrong with the reigning welterweight champion challenging the middleweight champ?
It's been happening since boxing first began.You don't need me to name those that did it do you?

Thirty three when he first challenged Monzon
Current top middles and their ages.
Golovkin 41
Charlo 33
Andrade 35
Other top fighters
Alvarez 33
Joshua 33
Usyk 36
Beterbiev 38
Crawford 35

Monzon made 12 defences only 2 of them on home turf .

[billeau2]

Hearns was about as much a natural welterweight as I am a natural 10 pounder. He was an unnatural welterweight who probably had to work hard to make the limit, which might also be the reason he was unable to absorb as much punishment as other ATGs.

Could you explain the bolded. I would think that if he was more of a natural Middle, he would absorb more punishment... what am I missing?

Hearns did what a lot of fighters do: He fought as long as he could to maintain an advantage, and had a great run doing so. When he got older, bigger, etc, he went up. I think there has been a lot of unnecessary confusion with this issue of creating a duality where none need exist: Hearns does not Have to be either/or, a welter, or middle. He was a tall guy that made it so eventually he fought up. imo

[Dr. Z]

Hagler fought;
Leonard a natural welterweight.
Hearns a natural welterweight.
Antuofermo,a natural light middle weight.
Mugabi a natural light middleweight.

On Leonard, Hearns and Duran, anyone of those opponents would be the best Monzon fought! You know this, if you disagree, name them! I suspect you will shut up and avoid this point as usual... but you brought it up.


And those three men all had significant wins at middleweight and above. They were great pound for pound fighters. The other of Hagler's opponents are decent contenders no more.

Moznon did not face good comotriton, and who he face was generally much older,smaller and not as famous. As punchers Leonard and Hearns were better than Monzon faced. Mugbi is in that discussion too

What is it with you? You sure like fighters who beat up their wife's. IMO, the men who did that are scumbags.

[DooGee#33]

- - Ken Norton is infinitely better than Turpin.

Like I said, not knocking Turpin, but he was considerably lesser to the champions of his day much like Neon Leon was.

I disagree. I think Randy was more along the lines of a Meldrick Taylor. Very talented, a tough out for anyone at his peak but once he lost it, he was beatable. Boxing is different. A guy can lose it in 1 night. Wilfred Benitez was shot at 25, Rid**** Bowe etc.

its true that Robinson was not prepared for the first bout like he normally would have. Randy beat him ip pretty good. Looking at the rematch Sugar Ray was fast and sharp. It was a crisp fast fight and Robinson was winning but Turpin was giving a good account of himself as well.

[DooGee#33]

Yes it was a great victory and where you place Cuevas historically is no concern of mine.
Where is your evidence that the weight was hard for him to make?
Son?

Cuevas was a feared champion. He was a bone breaker especially that lefthook. I saw him KO Pete Ranzany in the rain at old Hughes Stadium Sacramento Ca. In 2 rounds. Pete was a good solid Welterweight, probably would hold a belt today at least.
we came to root for Ranzany and left early courtesy of Pipino.

[Ivich]

Cuevas was a feared champion. He was a bone breaker especially that lefthook. I saw him KO Pete Ranzany in the rain at old Hughes Stadium Sacramento Ca. In 2 rounds. Pete was a good solid Welterweight, probably would hold a belt today at least.
we came to root for Ranzany and left early courtesy of Pipino.

It's done in a palpably obvious effort to diminish Monzon's wins. Ignoring the fact that he fought plenty of good sized middleweights like;
Benvenuti
Tonna
Bogs
Bouttier
Licata
Mundine
Bogs and Mundine went on to fight at lhvy. Bogs won the EBU Middle and Light heavyweight titles.Mundine won the Australian middle, lhvy cruiser, and heavyweight titles and had a 9 year career as a light heavyweight after challenging Monzon
Griffith won welter and middleweight titles and was strong enough to beat **** Tiger. Griffith was built like a tank and was the number 1 contender Past prime? Griffith had won his last 10 fights!
Punchers?
Mundine had an over 80% ko record
Bouttier nearly 67%
Tonna over 80%
Briscoe over 80%
Valdes over 67%

[QueensburyRules]

I disagree. I think Randy was more along the lines of a Meldrick Taylor. Very talented, a tough out for anyone at his peak but once he lost it, he was beatable. Boxing is different. A guy can lose it in 1 night. Wilfred Benitez was shot at 25, Rid**** Bowe etc.

its true that Robinson was not prepared for the first bout like he normally would have. Randy beat him ip pretty good. Looking at the rematch Sugar Ray was fast and sharp. It was a crisp fast fight and Robinson was winning but Turpin was giving a good account of himself as well.

- - Had that been Pea with Dumpy Duva screaming at the ref after JC beat the DingDongs out of Pea, Meldrick still undefeated and would beat Pea's competition easier with more acclaim than Pea.

As it was, Duva saved Pea for years later when he had a great chance vs a great champ winding down, instead clowning his victory away with a draw and howl about robbery sorta like he clowned his way to a lose vs Ramirez in Monte Carlo.

[billeau2]

On Leonard, Hearns and Duran, anyone of those opponents would be the best Monzon fought! You know this, if you disagree, name them! I suspect you will shut up and avoid this point as usual... but you brought it up.


And those three men all had significant wins at middleweight and above. They were great pound for pound fighters. The other of Hagler's opponents are decent contenders no more.

Moznon did not face good comotriton, and who he face was generally much older,smaller and not as famous. As punchers Leonard and Hearns were better than Monzon faced. Mugbi is in that discussion too

What is it with you? You sure like fighters who beat up their wife's. IMO, the men who did that are scumbags.

The point about Leanard, Hearns and Duran... How is this relevant to the issue of an opponent's size? And n ad Hominum attack regarding how someone could be a fan of Monzon... that is just very silly and uncalled for. My father was a conductor for a major orchestra, conservatory and my dad was a ***. Long before the whole "Woke" thing, he caught flack because he played some of Wagner's arraingements. Wagner was a **** sympathiser... My dad felt that people, all people, should not be deprived of Wagner's talents because of Wagner's short comings. You cannot throw together all aspects of a person's life to decide what you should appreciate UNLESS you could possibly know every shortcoming and every virtue of every fighter, everywhere...