Greb vs the great heavyweights

[JAB5239]

No one can say it because there’s nothing to suggest he would. He could have beating him up in sparring 100 times in a row it means nothing I regards to what would happen if they had a fight.

Than why is it comical to think Greb could beat Dempsey? You say it has no regards, but apparently it did or Dempsey would have been fighting him instead of Miske, Brennan, Carpentier and Gibbons.

[Willie Pep 229]

first, I'm not saying he could beat all the greats. But styles make fights. Sam Langford is highly regarded at heavyweight and wasnt that much bigger than Greb.

Second, there were a lot of dimes present when these sparring sessions. Did all of the make up the same story?

Yea, they actually do that. The promoter creates the lead and if they the reporters want the free train ride, free booze, paid girls, and ringside seats, Yep! they'll all follow the promoters lead.

Rickard told the reporters that Carpentier had a secret punch he called the 'evil eye' -- the reporters all wrote about it, and when Carpentier landed a solid right hand on Dempsey in the second round, the next day all the reporters wrote about how close Carpentier came to knocking out Dempsey with his secret punch.

Sports journalism wsn't jouralism, it was just about selling newspapers.

P.S. Story has it that Rickard had to grab Carpentier coming off the boat and explain to him that he had a secret punch.

Carpentier was snart and went along with all of it. There is newsreel footage of Carpentier hanging out with Mary Pickford, Chaplin, and Fairbanks. That's as cool as it gets in 1921.

Dempsey, Rickard, Carpentier, and the reporters put 75K in Boyles Thirty Acres and created the first million dollar gate.

Look at my signature quote below. I didn't just put it there, it's been there for months. It help's keep me honest about being a Dempsey fan.

Short answer: Sure they would all lie. They were building the Miske gate, and Fitzsimmons was building for a Greb-Dempsey go.

If you have the time later in life, read H. L. Mencken's How Legend's Get Made. It is about the reporting surrounding the Carpentier fight. He is not kind to his contemporaries.

[Willow The Wisp]

Like to have seen Sam Langford (b. 1886) Vs. Harry Greb (b. 1894) fight between late1918 - 1921. Yes, there's an eight year age gap, but we'd take it. Possibly the two most glamorized greats ever. 1920, and tell em' to come ready to fight the fight of their life as the winner gets Dempsey for the title.

[JAB5239]

Yea, they actually do that. The promoter creates the lead and if they the reporters want the free train ride, free booze, paid girls, and ringside seats, Yep! they'll all follow the promoters lead.

Rickard told the reporters that Carpentier had a secret punch he called the 'evil eye' -- the reporters all wrote about it, and when Carpentier landed a solid right hand on Dempsey in the second round, the next day all the reporters wrote about how close Carpentier came to knocking out Dempsey with his secret punch.

Sports journalism wsn't jouralism, it was just about selling newspapers.

P.S. Story has it that Rickard had to grab Carpentier coming off the boat and explain to him that he had a secret punch.

Carpentier was snart and went along with all of it. There is newsreel footage of Carpentier hanging out with Mary Pickford, Chaplin, and Fairbanks. That's as cool as it gets in 1921.

Dempsey, Rickard, Carpentier, and the reporters put 75K in Boyles Thirty Acres and created the first million dollar gate.

Look at my signature quote below. I didn't just put it there, it's been there for months. It help's keep me honest about being a Dempsey fan.

Short answer: Sure they would all lie. They were building the Miske gate, and Fitzsimmons was building for a Greb-Dempsey go.

If you have the time later in life, read H. L. Mencken's How Legend's Get Made. It is about the reporting surrounding the Carpentier fight. He is not kind to his contemporaries.

I have the utmost respect for you as a poster whether we agree or not. But I don't think I believe this. I'm not saying it can't be true, I'm saying you would have to prove it to me. You're saying the reporters were in on it...did they all get together with Greb's camp and discuss the details they were going to print? And what purpose would spreading a story like this serve?

[Willie Pep 229]

I have the utmost respect for you as a poster whether we agree or not. But I don't think I believe this. I'm not saying it can't be true, I'm saying you would have to prove it to me. You're saying the reporters were in on it...did they all get together with Greb's camp and discuss the details they were going to print? And what purpose would spreading a story like this serve?

OK - but you missed ny point. We're not going to prove any of this. All we can do us build a preponderance of evidence. And then form an opinion. You have, i have. That's all there is folks.

[Slugfester]

I thought some people on here were smarter than what they are showing me today.

[Willie Pep 229]

I have the utmost respect for you as a poster whether we agree or not. But I don't think I believe this. I'm not saying it can't be true, I'm saying you would have to prove it to me. You're saying the reporters were in on it...did they all get together with Greb's camp and discuss the details they were going to print? And what purpose would spreading a story like this serve?

First I want to go on record with you . . . As a Dempsey fan I would have bought the Greb fight if I could have and as a Dempsey fan I would have been worried he MIGHT lose. But I would have bet Dempsey by KO.

What follows is the only kind of evidence I can offer, insight. There is no emperical evidence I can point to that would make my argument. So please give this a read.

This an excerpt from the Mencken essay I mentioned. It is Mencken addressing the issue, just three days after the fight that all the reporters had bought into the mis-belief that Carpentier had almost KOed Dempsey in the second round.

It's group-think -- it's how lies become history - it's about, how legends get made.

A good promoter knows how to feed the reporters; a smart reporter knows how to go along with it.

This particluiar legend had enough legs under it that some were calling for a rematch because they believed Carpentier was only one punch away from wining. He wasn't, not even close.

Mencken saw the fight live, wrote several articles about it - and recognized quickly (just days later) that his counterparts were already building a legend, and promoting a possible rematch. So he called them on it and tries to explain why they did it. ***


H. L. Mencken, "How Legends Are Made." [Excerpt]

Baltimore Evening Sun, July 5, 1921

. . . . "Boiled down, the thing simply amounts to this: that Professor Carpentier practiced a style of fighting that was more spectacular and attractive than Dempsey’s, both to the laiety present and to the experts; . . . But why did all the reporters and spectators agree upon the same fiction? The answer is easily given: all of them did not agree upon it. Fully a half of them knew nothing about it when they left the stand; it was not until the next day that they began to help it along. As for those who fell upon it at once, they did so for the simple reason that the second round presented the only practicable opportunity for arguing that Carpentier was in the fight at all, save perhaps as an unfortunate spectator."

*** One of his more interesting articles on the fight is about 'Women at the fight.' It was 1921 and he was watching the dawn of the Roaring Twenties but didn't completely understand where women were going, just yet. --> the flapper.

P.S. When I said "insight" above I meant Mencken's not mine.

[IronDanHamza]

Than why is it comical to think Greb could beat Dempsey? You say it has no regards, but apparently it did or Dempsey would have been fighting him instead of Miske, Brennan, Carpentier and Gibbons.

I said Ali not Dempsey.

Just because he didn’t fight him doesn’t mean that in has any bearing on what would happen if they fought.


Surely we know that sparring stories hold no weight in regards to an actual fight?

[joseph5620]

The belief that 5-8 middleweight Greb would swarm and "climb all over" 6-3 heavyweight Muhammad Ali is comical to me.

Greb would have to do everything he could just survive the distance. There is nothing on his resume comparable to Ali and that includes Tunney.

[JAB5239]

- - What assumptions you make up in that infantile world you live it ain't anything I said.

Greb very competitive vs top middles and LHs. Not so modern heavies. So copy it down on your Big Chief Tablet for future reference.

You said Greb would have trouble enough with modern lightheavyweight greats. Did you not? I said you must believe Tunney would struggle as well than considering how close their series of fights was overall. It's in post #8, there for all to see.

I never said Greb could beat any of the great heavyweights. I will argue tooth and nail he should have received a shot against one of them. I can post proof he whipped him in sparring on more than one occasion and that heavyweight champion chose to fight lesser fighters than Greb that Harry himself had already proven superior to. So where you and Slugfester are coming from I have no idea.

Now are you going g to answer the question? If you believe Greb would have trouble enought with modern lightheavyweight greats, than do you feel Tunney would as well?