Tunney Versus jack Johnson who wins and why

[Willie Pep 229]

Jackson won the British Empire Title not the World title Siler died before Johnson won the title so he never saw any of his title fights.I told you this before!
Corbett named Johnson as the cleverest heavyweight he ever saw, the quote is in Pollacks book.

When does Pollacks say Corbett said that - before or after Reno?

[billeau2]

He asked you first for a list of prime contenders heavyweight contenders beat. Go ahead and list who he fought at heavyweights at their prime. The list will be a short one. It shouldn't be hard a request. I would argue the heavyweight contenders that Johnson lost to were better than the prime heavyweight contenders hat he beat!

Willard, Hart, Choynski and Griffin, were to fighters he lost to...at least the names ones and not all of them were in their prime.

Ouch.


PS: I listed four heavyweights near their prime which he lost to! I proved his point. Now you are up. Name the prime heavyweights that he beat.

It is important to understand a few things about these losses you speak of... As I told Ghost, I do not believe in "excusing" a fighter's loss, and the same applies to me defending Johnson as when Ghost mentioned caveats about Johnson's wins. Here are considerations that are relevant to some of those losses: Choynski was an exceptional talent. Just was a lot better than he looks on paper. Those who fought him, among others say as much. He mentored Johnson, laced him up... I believe Johnson was young when he lost that fight...Most important point here is that there is no shame in losing to a fighter like Choyinski. Willard was a loss that many feel Johnson had coming due to lax training, but again... Willard was a strong, big bruising fighter. Not an easy opponent. Those are the two I think are more relevant to Johnson's status.

People often speak as though big heavyweights are a contemporary phenomena... Willard and jeffries were not only "Big" but had game. Jeffries was of course the better of the two.

[billeau2]

- - London was a fiction author prone to hyperventilation and grandiosity. The fight was stopped by the police based on JJ seconds crawling under the ring screaming and crying to stop the fight.

Does you buy new shoes ever time you step into it?

Watch the fight...

Queenie... London had a pathological hatred towards Johnson. His editorializing was confined to mocking Johnson... If London stated Johnson had overmatched his opponent, one would assume there was no motive for London to lie... London would have wanted nothing more than a chance to judge Johnson lacking.

[Willie Pep 229]

Queenie... London had a pathological hatred towards Johnson. His editorializing was confined to mocking Johnson... If London stated Johnson had overmatched his opponent, one would assume there was no motive for London to lie... London would have wanted nothing more than a chance to judge Johnson lacking.

I am not challenging your position here but let's be real, London's number one concern was selling newspapers, then came his racism. This was the height of the Yellow Press and every story, even the sports stories were over written, and the big bad Negro beating on the gallant but small white man is a seller.

[JAB5239]

I am not challenging your position here but let's be real, London's number one concern was selling newspapers, then came his racism. This was the height of the Yellow Press and every story, even the sports stories were over written, and the big bad Negro beating on the gallant but small white man is a seller.

Doesn't that make his take more plausible? Why would he raise the bar and make a "negro" look better?

[Willie Pep 229]

Doesn't that make his take more plausible? Why would he raise the bar and make a "negro" look better?

Oh, because fear sells. Being frightened of Black men, powerful Black men, was (and to some, still is) the great American fear.

There was much to gain, for way too many different groups with different motives, in making JJ look dangerous. They liked to paint him as non-human when they could.

Ever notice that when Harry Wills first comes up to New York out of New Orleans he is always described as the "Giant Negro" - It takes a year or two for the newspapers to lose the intro. and call him just Harry Wills.

P.S. I agree about the fight it was a one sided fight by almost every account you read. But I felt London's quote a little too much like hyperbole.

[Ivich]

When does Pollacks say Corbett said that - before or after Reno?

After.He picked Jeffries as his number one, but later he several times said Johnson was the cleverest fighter of the heavies.

[Ivich]

Oh, because fear sells. Being frightened of Black men, powerful Black men, was (and to some, still is) the great American fear.

There was much to gain, for way too many different groups with different motives, in making JJ look dangerous. They liked to paint him as non-human when they could.

Ever notice that when Harry Wills first comes up to New York out of New Orleans he is always described as the "Giant Negro" - It takes a year or two for the newspapers to lose the intro. and call him just Harry Wills.

P.S. I agree about the fight it was a one sided fight by almost every account you read. But I felt London's quote a little too much like hyperbole.

Johnson said the only round in which Jeffries did real well in was the 4th, when he landed a couple of good punches to Johnson's body.
I think it went a little deeper with Americans at that time,lurking in the white males psyche was the sexual threat the myth that black men were all hugely sexually endowed and looking to despoil and have sex and white women.Johnson played on this by wrapping his penis with gauze before sparring sessions.
Senegambian was one of the terms used to describe black fighters,with animal adjectives such as black panther,etc describing them .

[Ivich]

I am not challenging your position here but let's be real, London's number one concern was selling newspapers, then came his racism. This was the height of the Yellow Press and every story, even the sports stories were over written, and the big bad Negro beating on the gallant but small white man is a seller.

The reports of the Burns fight emphasized the gallant little white man being beaten up by the "Giant Ethiopian",and how courageously Tommy took his punishment.A desperate attempt to salvage some racial pride.

[Ivich]

It is important to understand a few things about these losses you speak of... As I told Ghost, I do not believe in "excusing" a fighter's loss, and the same applies to me defending Johnson as when Ghost mentioned caveats about Johnson's wins. Here are considerations that are relevant to some of those losses: Choynski was an exceptional talent. Just was a lot better than he looks on paper. Those who fought him, among others say as much. He mentored Johnson, laced him up... I believe Johnson was young when he lost that fight...Most important point here is that there is no shame in losing to a fighter like Choyinski. Willard was a loss that many feel Johnson had coming due to lax training, but again... Willard was a strong, big bruising fighter. Not an easy opponent. Those are the two I think are more relevant to Johnson's status.

People often speak as though big heavyweights are a contemporary phenomena... Willard and jeffries were not only "Big" but had game. Jeffries was of course the better of the two.

Not excuses but factors that must be taken into account.
Choynski fought Johnson in1901 Choynski had 69 fights Johnson11.
Choynski was probably just past his best, Johnson was certainly nowhere near prime Pollack states Johnson weighed in the the region of 168lbs for this fight.
Choynksi was a remarkable puncher.especially for his size, a trap setter like Fitz , he caught Johnson and stopped him, its that simple.
Johnson was stopped by Klon***e in1899.
George Siler, the great referee is credited with discovering Johnson, he was at the fight and said Johnson had been existing on the food at free lunch counters and hadn/ a thimbleful of victuals in him when he faced Klon***e.
Johnson did well early, dropping Klon***e but ,weakening under his body attack was finally overwhelmed.Klon***e was a leading black fighter no disgrace in losing to him.
Johnson drew with him a year later and stopped him in their last fight that year.

1901 Griffin 30 fights beat Johnson14 fights over 20 rds.Griffin deserved the dec by all accounts
Later that year they drew.
A year later they drew again.

1905 The Hart fight is so controversial I don't use it as any kind of yardstick George Siler called it," an exceedingly strange decision."

1915 Willard.Johnson was in front at the time of the ko ,Jack Welch stated if he was called upon to render a decision after 20 rounds he would have unhesitatingly have awarded it to Johnson.
Johnson was37 years old ,overweight and past his best, years of dissipation had robbed him of his stamina,and the circumstances of the fight the venue and the distance, 45rds were all geared to give the white man the advantage.
No way was Johnson going to be able to win a decision at the end of 45rdsand koing the giant cowboy was always a hard task.
These are not excuses they are just cold facts. From1905 until1915 Johnson never lost ,that's a ten year run during which period he was hounded and in exile on the run from the US authorities.
We might compare that with the fighters today ,and the reasons they trot out for losing?