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George Foreman Is Overrated

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  • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

    Ranked by The Ring .None of those Ali fought in that period were no hopers and all of them would have been favourite to beat Terry Daniels and Ron Stander, two unranked journeymen whom Frazier defended his title against tying up the title for a year and a half .Nobody could shame you! You have no shame, everyone schools you here, but you come right back for more, like a clockwork mouse that keeps running into the skirting board.lol
    Ali 2 Frazier 1
    Foreman 2 Frazier 0
    If Ali had taken a couple more fights to shake off the ring rust and build up his stamina after 3 and a half years of inactivity and only18 rds of boxing under his belt before fighting Frazier that would read
    Ali 3 Frazier 0 And Frazier would be 0, 5 against the two best men he faced.
    Its a fair point... How many fighters jump back in the mix so fast... Of course the division was chockablock with talent... But in either case Ali was coming back after a layoff. But that speaks to a division where average opposition is anything but average.
    Last edited by billeau2; 06-13-2022, 02:14 PM.

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    • Originally posted by billeau2 View Post

      Its a fair point... How many fighters jump back in the mix so fast... Of course the division was chockablock with talent... But in either case Ali was coming back after a layoff.
      I think the pacing was fine. A few easy rounds with Quarry and 15 hard rounds with Bonavena should have been enough.

      Forget prime, IMO fighters peak during their careers. Ali got unlucky when he caught Frazier peaking.

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      • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

        I think the pacing was fine. A few easy rounds with Quarry and 15 hard rounds with Bonavena should have been enough.

        Forget prime, IMO fighters peak during their careers. Ali got unlucky when he caught Frazier peaking.
        The tactics Ali adopted against Frazier proved he had no confidence in either his legs or his stamina.
        Frazier got lucky when he caught Ali rustt and short of ring rounds and proved it when they next met! Peak Ali would have beat the crap out of Bonavena.
        After 3 and a half years Ali came back and took on the number 2 ranked guy 2 fights later he's fighting Frazier
        Contrast that with Fury's return after 2 years and seven months.Sefer Seferi and Pianetta!
        Last edited by Ivich; 06-13-2022, 06:21 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

          I think the pacing was fine. A few easy rounds with Quarry and 15 hard rounds with Bonavena should have been enough.

          Forget prime, IMO fighters peak during their careers. Ali got unlucky when he caught Frazier peaking.
          Well... far be it for me to make an excuse for any fighter... But 'easy rounds against Quarry? Are you nuts? (teasin you) thats kinda like saying, to get in shape for fighting lions I did some nice relaxed training with the Army Rangers! lol.

          I guess my POV is there was no easy fight for Ali to get back in the mix. Was it enough to present Ali at his finest? No way to know... I would never take anything away from Frazier though.
          Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 likes this.

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          • Originally posted by Ivich View Post

            The tactics Ali adopted against Frazier proved he had no confidence in either his legs or his stamina.
            Frazier got lucky when he caught Ali rust and short of ring rounds and proved it when they next met! Peak Ali would have beat the crap out of Bonavena.
            After 3 and a half years Ali came back and took on the number 2 ranked guy 2 fights later hes fighting Frazier
            Contrast that with Fury's return after 2 years and seven months.Sefer Seferi and Pianetta!
            That thought occured to me... (the bolded). To be fair to Joe... He caught Ali going straight back and was good enough to make Ali pay for a foible few other fighting men could exploit with Ali.

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            • Originally posted by billeau2 View Post

              That thought occured to me... (the bolded). To be fair to Joe... He caught Ali going straight back and was good enough to make Ali pay for a foible few other fighting men could exploit with Ali.
              Because Ali did not have his legs!

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              • Originally posted by Ivich View Post
                Ali didnt decisively stop Quarry, a cut eye ended the fight,Ali looked very ordinary [for him], against Bonavena and Jose Torres sitting ringside said so in his book Sting Like Bee.
                Ali spent far too much time backing into corners and inviting Frazier to come in ,his mobility wasnt there ,nor was much of his timing, his performance wasn't that great at all imo. Compare it to the Ali that smashed Williams, that was a great performance though of course his opponent was not of Frazier's calibre
                imo.
                Frazier won that fight and won it well,but he never managed that result in two more tries .
                Conversely I've always thought that the excuse that Frazier lost to Ali twice and Foreman twice was because the FOTC essentially ruined him.I think that's BS Frazier looked much the same in the 2nd Quarry fight as he had in their first encounter only a bit more dominant.Likewise he looked pretty good flooring and beating Joe Bugner later.He may have lost some intensity and desire,but the idea that he was a medical wreck is nonsense.
                Manila showed he still had plenty left.

                Frazier chose to fight those unranked guys and as a consequence was not ready to face a real class man when he fought Foreman, plus he had stopped listening to Durham and thought he knew best.The thinking was ,get George now while he is still somewhat green around the edges.
                I don't buy that ,if Joe was 100% he would beat Foreman,for me Foreman eats him up 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. Frazier was 29years old when he took on Big George if he wanted to pose as a rock singer in his band and defend against nobodies that was his choice and is on him.
                That's a thought shared by others bud. Love Jose Torres and I appreciate your quoting his book, which I last read in maybe 71' - 72' when it cane out; but we'll have to agree to disagree on all that mess. Ali couldn't miss Quarry in that fight. If he didn't look as dominant as he did against 7 years past prime Folley & Williams or Karl Mildenburger (though I think he did), its because he was facing a better fighter in 1970 Quarry.
                In 68 fights against the who's who of the 60s and 70s Bonavena was only stopped once, against Ali in one Ali's best KO performances against a prime opponent. I love ya more than my folks but you're leading with your chin on this one, over eager for winning an argument, repeating old supposition offered as sour g****s 51 years ago after a fight that I followed very carefully in real time. Not that I know much of anything.

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                • Originally posted by Willow The Wisp View Post

                  That's a thought shared by others bud. Love Jose Torres and I appreciate your quoting his book, which I last read in maybe 71' - 72' when it cane out; but we'll have to agree to disagree on all that mess. Ali couldn't miss Quarry in that fight. If he didn't look as dominant as he did against 7 years past prime Folley & Williams or Karl Mildenburger (though I think he did), its because he was facing a better fighter in 1970 Quarry.
                  In 68 fights against the who's who of the 60s and 70s Bonavena was only stopped once, against Ali in one Ali's best KO performances against a prime opponent. I love ya more than my folks but you're leading with your chin on this one, over eager for winning an argument, repeating old supposition offered as sour g****s 51 years ago after a fight that I followed very carefully in real time. Not that I know much of anything.
                  Ali didnt look good in the Bonavena fight ,by his own admission he was shook up in the 9th .No sour g****s on my part,no repeating others suppositions I watched the fight on a delayed telecast and bought it later.

                  You followed very carefully? So did I, I was going to it but couldn't find the £150 required. ps Ali didnt look that special against Mildenberger either.You'll be hard pressed to find a boxing writer who thinks Ali beating Bonavena was a vintage performance.

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                  • Originally posted by Ivich View Post
                    Ali didnt look good in the Bonavena fight ,by his own admission he was shook up in the 9th .No sour g****s on my part,no repeating others suppositions I watched the fight on a delayed telecast and bought it later.

                    You followed very carefully? So did I, I was going to it but couldn't find the £150 required. ps Ali didnt look that special against Mildenberger either.You'll be hard pressed to find a boxing writer who thinks Ali beating Bonavena was a vintage performance.
                    Agreed. Was not overly impressive by Ali standards.
                    Ivich Ivich likes this.

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                    • I don't know. Gotta respect the George Foreman grill collection. I'm sure I read somewhere that the grill thing was initially planned to be Hulk Hogan, terrifying to think of the Hulkster's grill wagging it's finger at me if I overcooked my burger. Nash out.
                      MikeyMike100 MikeyMike100 likes this.

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