Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[travestyny]

On winning the title Dempsey announced he ,"would pay no attention to black challengers ,but he later reversed his stance on this.Kearns given reason for refusing to let Dempsey spar with Jeannette was because he thought it would establish a precedent .What had Dempsey to fear in boxing an exhibition with the past prime Jeannette? I must make a correction to my earlier post Dempsey was due to spar with Joe Bonds not Porky Flynn.Bonds was in the arena,but claimed an injury.Jeannette was due to box on the bill which was in aid of The United War Work Fund the date was Nov16th 1918 at MSG.Dan Morgan made the following statement to the Brooklyn Daily Standard Nov 18th 1918."In justice to Dempsey I wish to say I believe in my heart he would have gone on with Jeannette had not his manager Kearns refused to permit him to do so."Promoter Jim Coffroth said some folks tried to trick Dempsey into fighting Jeannette he was supposed to box Joe Bonds for War Fund Charities but when he was in the ring Jeannette entered instead .Coffroth stated that Dempsey was willing to fight him but Coffroth thought the trick being used was unfair .Dempsey ans his manager left the ring and Dempsey donated $500 to the fund.

Fair enough. But I find it highly su****ious that Dempsey's own article even says he declined for no other reason than Jeannette being black. Which was why he said he would fight TWO white men instead, but then declined when they stepped up. I think the article was titled "They called me a bum." I'm sure I have it so I'll send it through when I find it.

[Ivich]

Fair enough. But I find it highly su****ious that Dempsey's own article even says he declined for no other reason than Jeannette being black. Which was why he said he would fight TWO white men instead, but then declined when they stepped up. I think the article was titled "They called me a bum." I'm sure I have it so I'll send it through when I find it.

Pollack's recent Dempsey book has loads of newspaper quotes on this subject,some suggesting Dempsey was being taken advantage of, others saying he should have gone through with the exhibition.Jeannette himself said he did not know the circumstances of the pre arrangement to substitute him for Bonds which is rather hard to believe.

[travestyny]

Ivich

Here is the Dempsey Article. Tells the exact same story as the NYT.

Later in the article he asks Dempsey if he remembers that, and Dempsey replies that he does.


In fairness, it does say he sprang forward and was held back at one point. But that last line I had to add because I think that tells the tale. "I'll fight any white man they put on, but I didn't agree to fight a colored boy."

[travestyny]

Pollack's recent Dempsey book has loads of newspaper quotes on this subject,some suggesting Dempsey was being taken advantage of, others saying he should have gone through with the exhibition.Jeannette himself said he did not know the circumstances of the pre arrangement to substitute him for Bonds which is rather hard to believe.

Yeaaa, I definitely don't believe Jeannette. lol. He knew what he was doing.

Dempsey did initially say he would fight anyone the promoter chose. I mean....

[Willie Pep 229]

Yeaaa, I definitely don't believe Jeannette. lol. He knew what he was doing.

Dempsey did initially say he would fight anyone the promoter chose. I mean....

So did Jeannette's guy McKitrick buy Bonds off to step aside?

What we know of 'Dan' says maybe.

[travestyny]

So did Jeannette's guy McKitrick buy Bonds off to step aside?

What we know of 'Dan' says maybe.

I believe so. I think it's easy to see at this point.

[QueensburyRules]

The Clay v Cooper fight was televised later in its entirety. I've seen it several times.Dundee was full of it,he didn't get away with anything r e the glove.What he did get away with was having an assistant crack smelling salts under Ali's nose,they had been banned in the UK for some time by then.The official verdict on the Burns fight has gone from TKO ,to police stopped fight and back to TKO,similar to Johnson's win over Jeffries. I was in Havana in April a few years ago the temperature was in the high 80's but the humidity was murderous. I was showering and changing clothes several times a day and I was just strolling about.Johnson was in that ring for nearly 2 hours fighting a giant at the age of 37 ,overweight and undertrained.
Johnson was still out of it when Sam McVey helped him onto his stool.The day after the fight Johnson stated ,"Willard beat me fair and square I never dreamed a man could survive against me if I really went after him,the better man won" Willard knocked out 2 of Johnson's gold teeth which he swallowed not wanting the crowd to see,He showed Barney Curley the promoter the gaps in his teeth the next morning.Johnson was at the quayside to see Willard off and they parted on good terms. Johnson didn't write that book which was originally called Mes Combats,it was a ghosted hack job done by a third rate scribe.Johnson was genuinely ko'd after doing his best to get the Cowboy out of there and running out of steam and stamina it was a terrific right hand that did the job.Personally I think the fight reflects great credit on Johnson for the fight he put up,everything was stacked against him the distance of 45rds was a joke. Once ,realised he couldnt get Jess out of there he knew he was going to lose but he didn't quit.Jack Welch the referee said if the fight had been scored over the first 20 rds he would have given the decision to Johnson.Johnson peddled a story to Fleischer that he took a dive and Fleischer paid him a few bucks but never published the "confession". Is it actually possible for you to make a post with personnaly insulting the recipient of it? I can see its pretty much the norm on here, but its all so childish and I get the impression you're a bit better than that.

- - U gonna go hazy again?

Two of the most primary of primary sources that can be had, Cooper and Dundee in opposing camps say the rest period was delayed at least a minute if not more. Ya could look it up.

I don't know what U saw, but what I saw was no delay and yes, smelling salts, but what I saw was spliced after the fact with no original footage to be had, and near as I can tell, no unspliced footage of the fight in it's original form survives to date.

JJohnson was in fantastic shape for Willard. It's like U don't understand fight physiology or conditions. He had also fought a high paced 20 rounder vs Moran the year before. And as to JJ age, Willard was no spring chicken either with considerably less experience.

U as an ol' git in Havana being distressed by tropical humidity ain't the same as two fit fighters.

I mean???

[Willie Pep 229]

- - U gonna go hazy again?

Two of the most primary of primary sources that can be had, Cooper and Dundee in opposing camps say the rest period was delayed at least a minute if not more. Ya could look it up.

I don't know what U saw, but what I saw was no delay and yes, smelling salts, but what I saw was spliced after the fact with no original footage to be had, and near as I can tell, no unspliced footage of the fight in it's original form survives to date.

JJohnson was in fantastic shape for Willard. It's like U don't understand fight physiology or conditions. He had also fought a high paced 20 rounder vs Moran the year before. And as to JJ age, Willard was no spring chicken either with considerably less experience.

U as an ol' git in Havana being distressed by tropical humidity ain't the same as two fit fighters.

I mean???

The heat and humidity isn't really the issue boxing history wise.

First off the temp was 72 to 74 degrees not in the mid 80s.

But the important part of the story is about JJ's story regarding his susposed tank job.

The Sims law (1912) wouldn't allow the fight film to be imported to the US but several clips, as still pictures, made their way into the country.

One infamous still (single frame) was of Johnson laying on his back with his knees up and his arm shielding his eyes.

This would all be debunked when the Sims law was repealed in 1940 and we got see that it was actually Johnson falling backwards in mid knockbdown and that his legs would lay flat on the canvas and his arm would fall back on his forehead as he slipped into unconsciousness.

But in 1920 when JJ was finally able to get back into the country (and do his one year time) he started floating the 'I took a dive' story and would point to the still photo and say something to the effect:

'See I'm not out, I'm holding my legs up off the canvas because the canvas was burning the back of my kegs, and I was shielding my eye from the blazing sun.'

Thus the 100 degree Hanvana day was born. Then with each telling the temperature rose a little, with some finally claiming it was 105 degrees.

Which with few Americans knowing anything about Cuba and thinking everything south of them must be hotter, it was an easy story to spread.

Willard wouldn't help matters either, because late in life he would confirm JJ's 100 degree story.

Willard did fight Dempsey in 100 degrees in Ohio in 1919 and it looks like Willard crossed his stories.

Or at least that is the conclusion from his latest biographor who went to Cuba and got the local newspaper and confirmed a low 70s day (with a decently high humidity.)

P.S. I don't the heat was there nor thAt it affected the outcome.

[ShoulderRoll]

Johnson gets no more a pass grom me for not fighting these top rated contenders than Dempsey does for not fighting Wills. Good information here though, thank you.

It's not really the same thing, though, is it?

Jack Johnson actually fought McVey, Jeannette, and Langford during his career. Some of them multiple times.

Dempsey NEVER fought Wills. Not even once.

[Willie Pep 229]

It's not really the same thing, though, is it?

Jack Johnson actually fought McVey, Jeannette, and Langford during his career. Some of them multiple times.

Dempsey NEVER fought Wills. Not even once.

Not every wannabe champion fights all the avaliable contenders, he fights and beats just enough of them to get his title shot.

Johnson fought black contenders because those were the fights he coukd make. Once champion he didn't.

Dempsey had a nine fight , eight KO run to his title shot agsinst Willard and didn't need to fight black contenders to get into that position.

Once they were both champions, JJ and Dempsey both avoided Wills and the other holy three but for different reasons.

You need to get past this thing were you believe these fighters, black or white owed anybody anything.

It's not an 84 game NBA season; no one said fist fighting would ever be fair; you have a finite number of fights and you take the best ones that get you to your goal.

If in his title run Dempsey beats a black fighter no one cares, loses to a black fighter and he takes two steps backward.

You got to respect their reality if you're going to evaluate them.

First you chose the best fights to get to the title shot (for Dempsey fighting blacks fighters doesn't help get him there.) and then the best fight for the best money once Champion.