Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

- - Well, if you have Moyles bio on Langford, that make you one up on me.

However.......Jeannette and McVey were green noobs when JJ cleaned up on them and Sam just hitting 150 lbs. Post JJ, all had much better numeric records than JJ career numbers. When JJ fled to Paris, the French were keen on Jeanette with his French name and Langford to fight him. The $$$ and interest were there, but nope, JJ brought in Battling Johnson to placate the French with a draw stinking so bad that the French quelled the stench by stripping him. They had Langford and Jeannette fight for his title that Langford won in a runaway classic.

Was JJ in the crowd or was he still cowering in his villa? That would've been the time to reclaim his title and show superiority, but he didn't, instead trying to ingratiate himself with the American Judge in charge of his Mann act conviction so he could return home and fight Luther McCarty, the white champion.

That never panned out, and so clearly JJ on the run again to wear out his welcome in Mexico in between Willard where I give him a lot of credit for cross training techniques that allowed him to fight at a high pace for 26 rounds before getting KOed.

You're wrong about Langford's weight,neither he or Johnson weighed in. Langford was estimated to weigh between 158 and 160lbs and Johnson185lbs.Langford had more fights under his belt that Johnson Johnson stated he was in the best condition of his life when he faced Jeffries for which fight he scaled 208lbs 23lbs more than the "guestimate," for the Langford fight.Moyle stated Langford's best weight was between175 and 180lbs so around 24 lbs lighter than his optimum weight.
Johnson was a fugitive he had limited options where he could earn a living. Langford and Jeannette fought the day BEFORE Johnson defended against Jim Johnson! Johnson had been stripped of his title by the French Boxing Federation prior to his fight with Battling JIm.His title was reinstated a month later.
Johnson broke his radius bone in the 3rd rd against Battling Jim which accounts for his poor showing,he was also not in anywhere near top condition.Johnson offered to defend his title against McCarty in Canada but McCarty's promoter Tommy Burns had no intention of allowing that to happen instead he wanted McCarty to fight his protege Arthur Pelkey which he did with tragic results for Luther.In closing your knowledge of this subject and its sequence of events is extremely hazy and thats putting it politely and, if I may say so your obvious dislike of Johnson has seriously coloured your judgement.

[Willie Pep 229]

Al Kaufman,JimJohnson, Tony Ross,Frank Moran,Jim Flynn,JIm Jeffries,Jess Willard.The idea that Johnson only fought little guys is a complete fallacy,compare the weights of his challengers with those of Jeffries or any other heavyweight champion before Joe Louis.

OK, OK, never said he only fought small guys, I said for the evaluation you were looking to make, the averaged weight of the contenders is not the answer. The most common weight (the mode) is the correct info to evaluate.

We should do a count, using 200 lbs as the bench mark. See how many 200 plus pounders he faced. Or should we use 190 considering the date?

I shall look- we'll go with the ten fights before Burns and ten fights after Burns, avoiding the post 1921 nonsense fights.

[Ivich]

OK, OK, never said he only fought small guys, I said for the evaluation you were looking to make, the averaged weight of the contenders is not the answer. The most common weight (the mode) is the correct info to evaluate.

We should do a count, using 200 lbs as the bench mark. See how many 200 plus pounders he faced. Or should we use 190 considering the date?

I shall look- we'll go with the ten fights before Burns and ten fights after Burns, avoiding the post 1921 nonsense fights.

You are going to run into a problem almost immediately unless you have primary sourced weights.How many 200 pounders did Johnson's predecessors and successors prior to Louis face?

[Willie Pep 229]

You are going to run into a problem almost immediately unless you have primary sourced weights.How many 200 pounders did Johnson's predecessors and successors prior to Louis face?

I would think few . . . Maybe 190 is a better weight - Dempsey won the title at 187 in 1919 so I think 190 is a fair weight to call a man 'big' in the nineteen tens. No?

As far as primary sources go - I only have access to the NYT archive, Boxrec, and the few newspapers that pop up from time to time.

Weights are likely out there - it was a mainstay of the game right from the get go (MQB get go.)

Have to first look and see how many Boxrec can provide to see if there is enough to form a real opinion.

P.S. I disgree with few opinions, but I have gotten a reputation for being **** to people who post absolute statements, especially when they offer their unquestionable opinion based on mere quotes, or observed videos. When making a historical statement it's always best to say, "maybe" or "it looks to be" - not "it is." That tends to make me act like a ****.

[Ivich]

I would think few . . . Maybe 190 is a better weight - Dempsey won the title at 187 in 1919 so I think 190 is a fair weight to call a man 'big' in the nineteen tens. No?

As far as primary sources go - I only have access to the NYT archive, Boxrec, and the few newspapers that pop up from time to time.

Weights are likely out there - it was a mainstay of the game right from the get go (MQB get go.)

Have to first look and see how many Boxrec can provide to see if there is enough to form a real opinion.

P.S. I disgree with few opinions, but I have gotten a reputation for being **** to people who post absolute statements, especially when they offer their unquestionable opinion based on mere quotes, or observed videos. When making a historical statement it's always best to say, "maybe" or "it looks to be" - not "it is." That tends to make me act like a ****.

What are you going to do about fights in which neither participant weighed in> eg Johnson v O Brien.Johnson v Langford, Johnson v Battling Jim Johnson? Weigh ins for Heavyweights being a mainstay is an absolute is it not? And plain wrong eg Fitzsimmons v Jeffries2 Fitzsimmons v Corbett. Jeffries v Munroe.Jeffries v Finnegan.

[JAB5239]

He signed to fight them once his price was met ,that the fights did not come off was not his fault.The major difference between him and Dempsey was that he had already soundly beaten his best three black challengers prior to winning the title,andJack and Harry never met in the ring.Personally I think Dempsey would have smoked Wills, big slower guys were his meat,but Wills deserved his chance and never got it. Why is Dempsey rated above Wills?Dempsey took out a prime Fulton in a minute and a half and floored Firpo multiple times before koing him .Fulton went into the 6th? Whlle Wills and Firpo went the distance and the Wild Bull, not in top shape lost a dreary pedestrian decision after being floored on the break.

I respect Johnson for fighting them. It's part of the reason I rate him where I do. But I'm not giving him a pass for not defending the title against them, especially Langford after they had matured and improved. That he already fought them is a weak excuse to me.

[Ivich]

I respect Johnson for fighting them. It's part of the reason I rate him where I do. But I'm not giving him a pass for not defending the title against them, especially Langford after they had matured and improved. That he already fought them is a weak excuse to me.

Langford matured and improved and so did Johnson,both added around 22lbs to their frames and Langford was more experienced when they fought having had more fights so why would you expect him to beat an in shape Johnson? I've already explained that Johnson agreed to defend his title against all three of them but that circumstances outside his control prevented the fights from being made,yet you still blame Johnson for them not happening? Hpw is that logical?

[Ivich]

BTW, you do know that those 20 rounds may not have been 20 3 minute rounds? At that time Marquis de Queensberry rules weren't always universal and the old London Prize Fight rules were used. Under those a round lasted until someone made contact with the ropes or was knocked down which ever came first. So round could conceivably last 10 minutes.....or 10 seconds.

Poet

They were 3 minute rounds and McVey weighed 205lbs for that fight.Neither Johnson or McVey ever fought under LPR rules.

[Ivich]

so were allowed to give credit to fighters for how much pressure they went through? well then, time to redo all the rankings.

ok then, what about all the fighters addicted to *******? they had to live with that day in and day out. should we give fighters like Rosario extra credit for having such a rough lifestyle? what about fighters who lost family members or killed someone in the ring? that screwed up their life, and they had to live with it day in and day out.
is it Wills fault that he never got a title shot? Johnson was just lucky that he got a title shot and Wills never did. he never did anything extra to deserve a title shot. and Johnson beat mediocre fighters in his title defences and when he won the title...I dont think we should give him that much credit for that, and in fact him winning the title didnt help, since he refused to fight black fighters like Langford.

Johnson signed to defend his title against Langford, McVey, and Jeannette,that the fights did not happen was not his fault Prior to getting his title shot Johnson fought everyone who would face him Childs, Martin Gardner, Flynn,Fitzsimmons,Lang,McVey x3 Jeannette multiple times , Griffin,Everett ,Munroe. and Langford There is not one fighter who was his contemporary who deserved a title shot more than he did.
Wills could have fought Greb,Brennan,Godfrey,Gibbons,Miske, and Tunney who agreed to meet him for the right to fight Dempsey.he declined. Johnson was 30 years old before he got his title chance Jeffries wouldnt go near him whats lucky about that?
Johnson lost his title inApril1915 explain to me what Wills had done up to then to warrant a title shot?
In1914 he had drawn with a near41 years old Jeannette in November of that year he lost to McVeyand in December he was ko'd by Langford his only win in 1915 whilst Johnson was still champ was a lack lustre points dec over 8-7-3 John Lester Johnson in March!Why not do some research before making these statements?

[JAB5239]

Langford matured and improved and so did Johnson,both added around 22lbs to their frames and Langford was more experienced when they fought having had more fights so why would you expect him to beat an in shape Johnson? I've already explained that Johnson agreed to defend his title against all three of them but that circumstances outside his control prevented the fights from being made,yet you still blame Johnson for them not happening? Hpw is that logical?

I've been looking for this quote and finally found it. And yes I blame Johnson. Langford was the best available contender. It matters not that he had beat him before. Langford had earned a rematch and was screwed out of it in my opinion.

“Nobody will pay to see two black men fight for the title,” Johnson said However, when Johnson grew weary of Australian boxing promoter Hugh “Huge Deal”’ McIntosh’s efforts to arrange a match with Langford, he admitted that he had no wish to face Langford again. “I don’t want to fight that little smoke,” said Johnson. “He’s got a chance to win against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.”