Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[LondonRingRules]

His won over Gans was a great one, but explain to me how that one win surpasses everyone that Ali beat? Ali only had about 15 fights when he beat Moore and even though Archie was clearly past his prime, he got his first shot at the light heavyweight title( his first title shot) at the age of 39, so he peaked late and he was on a winning streak(coming off of wins such as Pastrano, Rinaldi ect) at the time of his loss to Ali. In his 17th fight he beat the experienced Doug Jones, who consider one of the most underrated contenders of that era and was coming off of wins of Folley and Foster. It was a good win over an experienced veteran. Also, who is to say that Gans wasn't as prime his prime as Moore was? He had 135 fights and had been in some hard fights.

!!!!!!!!!!!Blithering!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KostyaTszyu44]

ive seen some videos of johnson, and he was most definitely ahead of his time


but he fought many smaller men

[slicksouthpaw16]

Then I don't see what the point of bringing it up was. Sam got stopped more times than Ali, but as noted mostly at the tail end of his career. He also had five times as many fights, about four times as many KOs, more fights against Hall of Famers, more wins against Hall of Famers. He didn't dominate one division, he dominated several, so well in fact that numerous champions wouldn't face him. This despite him being not much more than a middleweight at his peak. What would Ali's standing be now if he never got a title shot? Like I said, make Ali fight Foreman, Frazier and Norton 15-20 times over a ten year period and he'd have a lot more Ls and stoppages on his record too.

Ali was never knocked out, even when he was old. As i have stated, i understand that Langford fought way more times than Ali did, and i also said that we cannot say ''what if'' Ali fought as many times as Langford did, because it never happened, and we don't know how Ali would have done in that era so its a moot point. We can only use the facts that are here, and that is that Ali remained a dominate heavyweight champion, avenged all of his losses in his hay day( up until he was completely shot against Berbick and Holmes) and is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. What Langford lacked is the consistency of Ali. To remain dominate without losing to lesser opponents, something that Ali never did even when he was old. For example i read in one of my old ring magazine's that a prime Langford was upset by a fighter( who was a big underdog) named Dave Holly and lost his color title by upset in the hands of Bill Tate. These are not exactly hall of famers.

Show me all of the accomplishments that Langford had that makes him greater than Ali? Ali was champion, and a dominate one, and that's something that Langford's cannot claim.

Young Langford beating Joe Gans, top 20 p4p and up there with Duran and Benny Leonard for being the greatest lightweight ever, is the equivalent of young Cassius Clay beating a prime Joe Louis. Foreman and Frazier, though great, were not on his level. I'd be interested to know why you think Ali beating 50 year-old Archie Moore is "just as good as" Langford beating Gans.

In saying that Langford lost the series with Wills, bear in mind that Wills was both younger and bigger, and that Langford was well over the hill for most of their fights - he was nearly 40 when they last met, older than Ali was when he faced Holmes.

You make it seem like Gans was in his prime when Langford beat him( he had about 135 fights at the time and his career defining achievements was pretty much over by that point), and you are most likely one of those people that don't acknowledge Ali's win over Patterson and Moore and just say that they were '' past their prime''. Moore was on a winning streak when he lost to Ali and so was Patterson, including a win over Bonevena, who i rate as one of the most underrated contenders of all time.

Another thing is that Ali was ''past his prime'' when he got out of exile and completely shot when he was in his late 30's. He beat younger fighters like Frazier, Foreman, Lyle and many others. You all bring up the blind excuse for Sam, but just take a look at the people he while he was blind. I remember watching a documentary about Langford, and it stated that he was always blind in one eye, and didn't become fully blind until he had retired.

Imo it's also pretty self-defeating to big up Ali over Langford with the "three-time champion" line, since it means acknowledging his loss to Leon Spinks, who had seven pro fights to his name and is arguably the worst heavyweight champ ever.

Its also ''self-defeating'' that you would bring up that fight( which Ali avenged) even though he was shot, and then make excuses when Langford loses when he was past his prime even though he went on to beat some good fighters after those losses. Double standards.

I am a fan of Langford, and i try to get my hands on any fight that i could find of him and any footage as well. The thing is, is that you are trying to convince that he was greater than Ali, which is not at all true. Maybe if he become champion( which he didn't) then you could have made a decent case. Ali is known as the greatest heavyweight champion, and on many list as second greatest fighter of all time. You mention that he dominated many division, show me a division that he dominated the way Ali dominated heavyweight and stayed at the top for many years?

[Poet682006]

Okay. Just to clear up any confusion there may be here; here are Johnson's and Wills record against the opponentes in question. No decisions have been removed and the record contains the age and record of the respective fighters at the date of the fight.

Johnson

Date Opponent Result #Fights Age Tally

04-26-06 Langford W DEC 15 43 - 52 28 - 23 1-0-0 (0-0)

11-25-05 Jeannette L DQ 2 38 - 10 27 - 26 0-1-0 (0-0)
01-16-06 Jeannette W DEC 3 39 - 12 27 - 26 1-1-0 (0-0)
03-14-06 Jeannette W DEC 15 41 - 13 27 - 26 2-1-0 (0-0)
09-20-06 Jeannette W DEC 6 46 - 16 28 - 27 3-1-0 (0-0)
11-26-06 Jeannette D DEC 10 48 - 17 28 - 27 3-1-1 (0-0)

02-26-03 McVea W DEC 20 20 - 6 24 - 18 1-0-0 (0-0)
10-27-03 McVea W DEC 20 23 - 9 24 - 18 2-0-0 (0-0)
04-22-04 McVea W KO 20 26 - 10 26 - 21 3-1-0 (1-0)


Wills

Date Opponent Result # Fights Age Tally

05-01-14 Langford W DEC 10 16 - 130 24 - 31 1-0-0 (0-0)
11-26-14 Langford L KO 14 26 - 146 25 - 31 1-1-0 (0-1)
12-03-15 Langford W DEC 10 31 - 149 26 - 32 2-1-0 (0-1)
01-03-16 Langford W DEC 20 32 - 150 26 - 32 3-1-0 (0-1)
02-11-16 Langford L KO 19 33 - 151 26 - 32 3-2-0 (0-2)
03-07-16 Langford W DEC 10 34 - 154 26 - 33 4-2-0 (0-2)
04-25-16 Langford W DEC 8 36 - 158 26 - 33 5-2-0 (0-2)
05-11-17 Langford D DEC 6 42 - 168 27 - 34 5-2-1 (0-2)
09-20-17 Langford W DEC 10 45 - 173 28 - 34 6-2-1 (0-2)
11-12-17 Langford W DEC 12 46 - 174 28 - 34 7-2-1 (0-2)
04-14-18 Langford W KO 6 49 - 176 28 - 35 8-2-1 (1-2)
05-19-18 Langford W KO 7 50 - 177 29 - 35 9-2-1 (2-2)
07-04-19 Langford W DEC 8 53 - 191 29 - 36 10-2-1 (2-2)
11-05-19 Langford W DEC 15 56 - 196 29 - 36 11-2-1 (2-2)
04-23-20 Langford W DEC 15 61 - 206 29 - 37 12-2-1 (2-2)
01-17-22 Langford W DEC 10 76 - 239 32 - 38 13-2-1 (2-2)

07-01-13 Jeannette D DEC 10 11 - 99 24 - 33 0-0-1 (0-0)
06-09-14 Jeannette W DEC 10 17 - 109 25 - 34 1-0-1 (0-0)
10-20-19 Jeannette W DEC 8 55 - 145 30 - 40 2-0-1 (0-0)

1914-12-20 McVea L DEC 20 27 - 62 25 - 30 0-1-0 (0-0)
1915-05-19 McVea L DEC 10 29 - 65 26 - 31 0-2-0 (0-0)
1915-09-07 McVea W DEC 12 30 - 69 26 - 31 1-2-0 (0-0)
1918-02-17 McVea W KO 5 48 - 84 28 - 33 2-2-0 (1-0)

Poet

[Steak]

Okay. Just to clear up any confusion there may be here; here are Johnson's and Wills record against the opponentes in question. No decisions have been removed and the record contains the age and record of the respective fighters at the date of the fight.

Johnson

Date Opponent Result #Fights Age Tally

04-26-06 Langford W DEC 15 43 - 52 28 - 23 1-0-0 (0-0)

11-25-05 Jeannette L DQ 2 38 - 10 27 - 26 0-1-0 (0-0)
01-16-06 Jeannette W DEC 3 39 - 12 27 - 26 1-1-0 (0-0)
03-14-06 Jeannette W DEC 15 41 - 13 27 - 26 2-1-0 (0-0)
09-20-06 Jeannette W DEC 6 46 - 16 28 - 27 3-1-0 (0-0)
11-26-06 Jeannette D DEC 10 48 - 17 28 - 27 3-1-1 (0-0)

02-26-03 McVea W DEC 20 20 - 6 24 - 18 1-0-0 (0-0)
10-27-03 McVea W DEC 20 23 - 9 24 - 18 2-0-0 (0-0)
04-22-04 McVea W KO 20 26 - 10 26 - 21 3-1-0 (1-0)


Wills

Date Opponent Result # Fights Age Tally

05-01-14 Langford W DEC 10 16 - 130 24 - 31 1-0-0 (0-0)
11-26-14 Langford L KO 14 26 - 146 25 - 31 1-1-0 (0-1)
12-03-15 Langford W DEC 10 31 - 149 26 - 32 2-1-0 (0-1)
01-03-16 Langford W DEC 20 32 - 150 26 - 32 3-1-0 (0-1)
02-11-16 Langford L KO 19 33 - 151 26 - 32 3-2-0 (0-2)
03-07-16 Langford W DEC 10 34 - 154 26 - 33 4-2-0 (0-2)
04-25-16 Langford W DEC 8 36 - 158 26 - 33 5-2-0 (0-2)
05-11-17 Langford D DEC 6 42 - 168 27 - 34 5-2-1 (0-2)
09-20-17 Langford W DEC 10 45 - 173 28 - 34 6-2-1 (0-2)
11-12-17 Langford W DEC 12 46 - 174 28 - 34 7-2-1 (0-2)
04-14-18 Langford W KO 6 49 - 176 28 - 35 8-2-1 (1-2)
05-19-18 Langford W KO 7 50 - 177 29 - 35 9-2-1 (2-2)
07-04-19 Langford W DEC 8 53 - 191 29 - 36 10-2-1 (2-2)
11-05-19 Langford W DEC 15 56 - 196 29 - 36 11-2-1 (2-2)
04-23-20 Langford W DEC 15 61 - 206 29 - 37 12-2-1 (2-2)
01-17-22 Langford W DEC 10 76 - 239 32 - 38 13-2-1 (2-2)

07-01-13 Jeannette D DEC 10 11 - 99 24 - 33 0-0-1 (0-0)
06-09-14 Jeannette W DEC 10 17 - 109 25 - 34 1-0-1 (0-0)
10-20-19 Jeannette W DEC 8 55 - 145 30 - 40 2-0-1 (0-0)

1914-12-20 McVea L DEC 20 27 - 62 25 - 30 0-1-0 (0-0)
1915-05-19 McVea L DEC 10 29 - 65 26 - 31 0-2-0 (0-0)
1915-09-07 McVea W DEC 12 30 - 69 26 - 31 1-2-0 (0-0)
1918-02-17 McVea W KO 5 48 - 84 28 - 33 2-2-0 (1-0)

Poet

when you do it like that, Wills almost looks like the better fighter.
nice job with the list.

[JAB5239]

when you do it like that, Wills almost looks like the better fighter.
nice job with the list.

Actually if you look closely at the ages, Wills was fighting guys who were past it most of the time.

[Steak]

Actually if you look closely at the ages, Wills was fighting guys who were past it most of the time.

McVea was in his early 30s.
Jeanette for most of their fights was in his early 30s.
He beat Langford multiple times in his early 30s.

they werent exactly old men, but I do understand that they had a ton of fights and that probebly wore down their career.

but considering the fact that Johnson was only beating McVea when Vea was a teenager and that Langford was naturally weighing in the 150s when Johnson beat him, I dont think its really a stretch to say that its pretty close. overall, the best of the three is probebly Langford, right?(judging by their fights against one another) Wills beat him 13 times over 7 years. maybe Langford might not have been at his best then, but Wills at least fought a real heavyweight version of Langford, something Johnson refused to do.

[JAB5239]

McVea was in his early 30s.
Jeanette for most of their fights was in his early 30s.
He beat Langford multiple times in his early 30s.

they werent exactly old men, but I do understand that they had a ton of fights and that probebly wore down their career.

but considering the fact that Johnson was only beating McVea when Vea was a teenager and that Langford was naturally weighing in the 150s when Johnson beat him, I dont think its really a stretch to say that its pretty close. overall, the best of the three is probebly Langford, right?(judging by their fights against one another) Wills beat him 13 times over 7 years. maybe Langford might not have been at his best then, but Wills at least fought a real heavyweight version of Langford, something Johnson refused to do.

I will never dismiss the fact that Johnson never gave Langford a deserved rematch, but Im afraid you're stuck with a bit of a conundrum. Whether one excuses the fact that Johnson didn't give deserving black contenders a shot or not (I don't) it doesn't change the fact that he had fought them before.

Styles make fights, we both know this. So Wills beating Langford all those times means little except that he had a great fighters number. Holyfield had Tysons number, but does anyone believe Mike would have struggled against the likes of Bert Cooper, Vaughn Bean or Micheal Moorer?

That championship Johnson won is EXACTLY why he ranks higher than Wills. Just the historical significance and importance of it sets them apart. That isn't Wills fault, but you can hardly blame Johnson for doing what every heavyweight of color wanted to do at the time too. Ya feel me?

[Steak]

I will never dismiss the fact that Johnson never gave Langford a deserved rematch, but Im afraid you're stuck with a bit of a conundrum. Whether one excuses the fact that Johnson didn't give deserving black contenders a shot or not (I don't) it doesn't change the fact that he had fought them before.

Styles make fights, we both know this. So Wills beating Langford all those times means little except that he had a great fighters number. Holyfield had Tysons number, but does anyone believe Mike would have struggled against the likes of Bert Cooper, Vaughn Bean or Micheal Moorer?

That championship Johnson won is EXACTLY why he ranks higher than Wills. Just the historical significance and importance of it sets them apart. That isn't Wills fault, but you can hardly blame Johnson for doing what every heavyweight of color wanted to do at the time too. Ya feel me?

even if Wills had Langfords number(which we dont know, aint footage of it) it doesnt mean we should give him any less credit for the wins.

and I guess we'll just have to disagree with the historical signficance thing. I personally dont think you should get any extra credit for how popular or revolutionary you were...otherwise, lists would be totally screwed up. Id have guys like De La Hoya, Tyson and Corbett ranked super high. just a difference in our rankings I guess.

I dont blame Johnson for going after the title, no way. but I dont really respect him either. I cant imagine his situation, so I honestly cant say I would act any better than him or anything...I havent had to go through what he did. maybe under the circumstances, almost all of us would have acted the way he did.
but dont expect me to respect him. when he won the title, he turned around and acted no better than the people that were discriminating against him. the fact that Langford ended up broke and blind after 300+ fights and that Johnson never even gave him the chance to win a title or make lots of money is not something to be proud of. he was in a position where he could have done a lot of good for blacks, but he did totally the opposite.

[JAB5239]

even if Wills had Langfords number(which we dont know, aint footage of it) it doesnt mean we should give him any less credit for the wins.

and I guess we'll just have to disagree with the historical signficance thing. I personally dont think you should get any extra credit for how popular or revolutionary you were...otherwise, lists would be totally screwed up. Id have guys like De La Hoya, Tyson and Corbett ranked super high. just a difference in our rankings I guess.

I dont blame Johnson for going after the title, no way. but I dont really respect him either. I cant imagine his situation, so I honestly cant say I would act any better than him or anything...I havent had to go through what he did. maybe under the circumstances, almost all of us would have acted the way he did.
but dont expect me to respect him. when he won the title, he turned around and acted no better than the people that were discriminating against him. the fact that Langford ended up broke and blind after 300+ fights and that Johnson never even gave him the chance to win a title or make lots of money is not something to be proud of. he was in a position where he could have done a lot of good for blacks, but he did totally the opposite.

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on some things. But the bold type isn't one of them. That has always been a sore spot with me about Johnson.