Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Steak]

Johnson was hated during his era while at the least Tyson was obsessed about. Also Tyson only won a portion of the heavyweight championship while Johnson won the worlds title that the majority thought should only belong to a white man. The differences are huge, my friend.

being hated should not raise your stock as a fighter. I understand that Johnson had to work very hard to get a title shot, but he isnt the only one who was denied a title shot. Wills never got his, and is that his fault? did Johnson beat anyone better than Wills ever beat to deserve a title shot? no, it was simply impossible for Wills to get a shot at the title, there was nothing he could have done.
quite honestly, he deserved a shot at Johnson himself while Johnson was champion, but Johnson refused to fights blacks. thats fair, right?

Was Tyson beating Berbick impressive? Liston over Patterson? Marciano over Walcott? To say yes would be looking at only a very small part of the picture, no?

Of course Liston beating Patterson was impressive, are you crazy? and Marciano over Walcott was also impressive. not so much Tyson vs. Berbick, and Johnson beating a very small Burns wasnt impressive either.

I question many things about Johnson. But at the end of the day there are great names on his resume. ALL his personal accomplishments that he is noted for have to do with his boxing career. If you are being objective and reasonable they HAVE to be factored in.

basically, youre saying that Johnson's life ****** because everyone was racist toward him, and that we should rate him much higher because of that. thats ridiculous. we base fighters on their boxing careers. who they beat, when and how.

The simple fact is Wills never accomplished what Johnson did. He was never held in the same regard as a fighter. That just can't be put to the wayside no matter how you look at it. If it was, Wills would be ranked higher.

ok, Wills was never as popular/well known as Johnson. so what? popularity shouldnt make you a great fighter or not. in hindsight, his record is almost just as good as Johnson's.
most people will agree that Roy Jones at super middle looked clearly better than Calzaghe ever did at supper middle. but Calzaghe was the one who stayed there and had the successful career, and is generally rated higher at the weight by everyone. this means that we should mostly judge a fighter on who they beat.

[Steak]

Right for some reason you always question the greatness of Jack Johnson, The reason Jack Johnson is so great he beat the best of his era including Langford,Bob Fitzsimmons,Fireman Jim Flynn,Tommy Burns,James J Jeffries,Ketchel and a few more.Having beat all these great fighters while so much was aginst him he had to follow and follow Burns round the golbe for that title shot and even when he was champ the white race were always thinking of what they could do to disturb his title reign and they put all of the best white fighters up against him and in his prime he beat them all. And please don't dare compare him to the likes of Ruiz as you have in the past becuase things in johnson's era were so different etc fixed fights, so much hate against him, and fact Johnson was so much better. Johnson also went without a loss once for 10 years, and even when he was defeated for his title he was out of shape and ring rusty.Jack Johnson was a great and one of the best heavyweights of all time.

END OF!

Johnson beat Langford when Langford was below 160lbs. He went on to have a very successful career at Heavyweight, but he sure as hell was no heavyweight when Johnson fought him.
all the rest of those guys you named were pretty much Middleweights or smaller Light Heavyweights. would you have givin Larry Holmes credit for beating Marvin Hagler? Probebly not much credit, and Hagler is arguably the best Middleweight of all time. why should he be giving that much credit to Johnson for beating Middleweights who werent even the best of all time in their own weight class if you wouldnt have givin Larry Holmes credit for beating the best middleweight of all time?
Dont make me laugh with Jeffries. he hadnt fought in 5 or 6 years.

Im much more impressed with his wins over McVae and Jeanette. then again, McVae was only a teenager when Johnson beat him.(assuming his birth date is correct)

[TheGreatA]

Im much more impressed with his wins over McVae and Jeanette. then again, McVae was only a teenager when Johnson beat him.(assuming his birth date is correct)

McVea may have been young (20 years old) but he was certainly no little kid when he fought Johnson.

[IMG]http://i265.***********.com/albums/ii209/jennetteboxer/JACKJOHNSON-SAMMCVEY.jpg[/IMG]

He already held a first round knockout win over Denver Ed Martin who was a very good fighter.

[Poet682006]

McVea may have been young (20 years old) but he was certainly no little kid when he fought Johnson.

[IMG]http://i265.***********.com/albums/ii209/jennetteboxer/JACKJOHNSON-SAMMCVEY.jpg[/IMG]

He already held a first round knockout win over Denver Ed Martin who was a very good fighter.

BTW, you do know that those 20 rounds may not have been 20 3 minute rounds? At that time Marquis de Queensberry rules weren't always universal and the old London Prize Fight rules were used. Under those a round lasted until someone made contact with the ropes or was knocked down which ever came first. So round could conceivably last 10 minutes.....or 10 seconds.

Poet

[Steak]

McVea may have been young (20 years old) but he was certainly no little kid when he fought Johnson.

[IMG]http://i265.***********.com/albums/ii209/jennetteboxer/JACKJOHNSON-SAMMCVEY.jpg[/IMG]

He already held a first round knockout win over Denver Ed Martin who was a very good fighter.

I certainly consider it a good win, and Im not going to pretend Im an expert on McVea, but I have a hard time believing he was more in his prime when he was a teenager than when he was in his mid twenties. not even Pipino Cuevas or Benitez were in their primes then.

and I dont think he was quite 20 for their last fight, but it was close.

[TheGreatA]

I certainly consider it a good win, and Im not going to pretend Im an expert on McVea, but I have a hard time believing he was more in his prime when he was a teenager than when he was in his mid twenties. not even Pipino Cuevas or Benitez were in their primes then.

and I dont think he was quite 20 for their last fight, but it was close.

I actually think both Benitez and Cuevas were in their primes at age 20. You could make the case that Tyson was too.

Maybe not at their absolute peak but pretty close to it.


20 year old Benitez


20 year old Cuevas


20 year old Tyson

McVea was not in his prime but as you said, it was a solid win for Jack Johnson regardless. McVea was already 200-210 lbs at that age, not the under-sized teenager that some make him out to have been (not you).

[Yogi]

McVea was already 200-210 lbs at that age, not the under-sized teenager that some make him out to have been (not you).

McVey was reported to have been weighed and measured (height, neck, chest, wrists, etc., etc.) by a Dr. Tillman just a day or two before the fight, and his listed weight going into that third fight with Johnson was at 208 pounds, as per the SF Call, Apr 21st, 1904.

Poet, that fight in April and the other ones between the two were under Queensberry rules with gloves and timed rounds at three minutes each, with the only clear knockdown in that fight happening in the first round when Johnson dropped McVey for a count towards the end of the first round (as he did in one of their first two fights). May have scored a knockdown in the 10th round, as well, but different reports are not unanimous in saying that, as some state that, for an example, "Johnson wrestled McVey down in the tenth".

One thing they are unanimous about, though, was the lack of action in the fight, with some reporting that a good portion of the crowd had left the club before the fight was halfway through, while those who stayed were reported to take part in some loud heckling and calling the fighters to produce some action.

[Steak]

I actually think both Benitez and Cuevas were in their primes at age 20. You could make the case that Tyson was too.

Maybe not at their absolute peak but pretty close to it.

personally, I actually think Benitez looked his best at Light Middleweight, but then went downhill pretty quickly after that, probebly cause of the *******. and Im pretty sure he was in his middle twenties around that time. when he was still 20, Im not positive but I think that was around the time when he was going to a draw with Weston and was having trouble with Bruce Curry...still a great fighter, but I think he was still undeveloped compared to the fighter he ended up becoming.

youre probebly right about Pipino though, the guy didnt change dramatically his whole career until he started to go downhill. So I think its pretty fair to say he was around 20 in his prime.

I thought prime Mike was around the time he beat Holmes and Spinks, I think he was only like 22 at the time, so thats very close.

so you make a good point.

[Poet682006]

Poet, that fight in April and the other ones between the two were under Queensberry rules with gloves and timed rounds at three minutes each, with the only clear knockdown in that fight happening in the first round when Johnson dropped McVey for a count towards the end of the first round (as he did in one of their first two fights). May have scored a knockdown in the 10th round, as well, but different reports are not unanimous in saying that, as some state that, for an example, "Johnson wrestled McVey down in the tenth".

Okay cool! It's not always clear from the newspaper reports what rules were being fought under back then.

Poet

[Southpaw16BF]

Johnson beat Langford when Langford was below 160lbs. He went on to have a very successful career at Heavyweight, but he sure as hell was no heavyweight when Johnson fought him.
all the rest of those guys you named were pretty much Middleweights or smaller Light Heavyweights. would you have givin Larry Holmes credit for beating Marvin Hagler? Probebly not much credit, and Hagler is arguably the best Middleweight of all time. why should he be giving that much credit to Johnson for beating Middleweights who werent even the best of all time in their own weight class if you wouldnt have givin Larry Holmes credit for beating the best middleweight of all time?
Dont make me laugh with Jeffries. he hadnt fought in 5 or 6 years.

Im much more impressed with his wins over McVae and Jeanette. then again, McVae was only a teenager when Johnson beat him.(assuming his birth date is correct)

Yes but what you don't understand that was the best of Johnson's era,and don't tryin compare that era with the holmes era becuase things were so different back then, a lot more fights back then were made and weight weren't really a issue some of the time, and also ok jeffries had been out a long time 6 years to be exact but he did train properly for the fight and got some good sparring aswell, also Langford was not your average 160lb guy that man was a freak who could knock anyone out from lightweight to heavyweight,and also you don't understand how good of a win tommy burns, burns had made 13 defences up untill that point and after avoding Johnson for years Jack finally got his shot in sidney austrailla and stopped him in 14 and here's why sometimes you can't comapre era becuase the whites were so mad of what Johnson was doing to the great Burns just when Johnson was about to stop him they turned the film off. Insane.I don't think that would happen in the holmes or Hagler era? And also going into the first Johnson fight Mcvea was 6-0 and Johnson was 12-3-5 So Johnsn weren't at his best either and it was for the 'colored' heavyweight title which was a subtistue for the black race to fight over and johnson beats on a 20 round decision the first time and then Mcvea coimes back on a 2 fight wi streak with a win including Kid Carter who beat the great Joe Walcott twice and Mcvea ko'd him in 11 and then him and Johnson have the return fight and yet again Johnson beats him on 20 round decision. So great wins for Johnson and you can say all you want but anyone that knows there boxing will say Jack Johson was a great fighter.