Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[The Noose]

Tyson was very poor in the 2nd Ruddock fight. IMO he actually looked similar to the way he did when he came out of prison. He seemed slower like he had been injected with led.

I think Holyfield vs Tyson in 1991 would have been very close. Tyson still threw decent combinations which might have been to key to hurting Holyfield (in their 1st fight he only threw combos in the 5th, which he won).
Yet Holyfield had the durabilty and desire to beat Tyson the way he did in 1996.

Prime vs prime, i say Tyson. But Holyfeild would always have severly tested Tysons heart. More so than Lewis.

[The Iron Man]

A 1991 fight would have probably gone down as one of the best fights in History, the poster for it is my background haha. As for the 2nd ruddock fight it was basically a slugfest they went to knock each other out, jabs were irrelevent all they wanted was to kick the **** out of each other, if tyson went in that fight with the plan he took into other fights pre-prison we would of had another tko/ko

[Mike Tyson77]

havent seen em in a while and cant get them hereso......whats your point?

In the 6th round of the first fight, Ruddock started nailing Tyson with hooks and uppercuts snapping Tyson's head back. It looked like a round out of the Douglas fight. But then Tyson put his glove up to his chin with a "HIT ME AGAIN!". And Ruddock did! Then Tyson came right back with a combonation. The round ended and Tyson came out for 7th throwing bombs at Ruddock forcing the ref to stop it when Ruddock got wobbled.

Tyson had heart, you can't become a two time champion and not have heart. Anyone who steps into the ring has heart, and so did Tyson.

[SkillspayBills]

You can't say tyson doesn't ave heart, I mean if you get in the ring with someone wants to rip your head off you have some sort of heart.

[The Iron Man]

Also to fight on untill u cant physically get up that shows heart. Prime Examples are against Lewis and Douglas.

[BKM-]

I never really got the impression that Bowe outslugged him in the fight, Holyfield's worse moments were when he get caught coming in not when he was inside.
Holyfied was able to stick and move better in the second fight because Bowe was out of shape and couldn't catch a cold.

You might have gotten the wrong impression because of the immense applause and respect Holyfield has gotten from the 10th round where he was firing back after a beating. But in reality, he didn't capatilize as much as people have been glorifying(Mostly missed shots, and a tired Bowe, not hurt Bowe), and Bowe did the most damage, having Holyfield on his last legs a few times as well as knocking him down once.
Holyfield's worse moments were definitely when he was caught on the inside. One word, uppercut. First Bowe landed a flush uppercut in the tenth that started one of the greatest HW rounds of all time. Then in the 11th another hellacious uppercut that started the knockdown.

Holyfield does use the jab effectively in the last several rounds and the first before the knockdown, I just watched the fight recently. After the predicted recovery round, he starts catching Cooper with the jab, using movement, and digging in combinations. The commentary misses it as they were often very unfair to Holyfield back then but eh....

In my opinion he still didn't use it as much as he should have but hey, doesn't really matter since he won in the end, wich is all that matter at the end of the day.

Holyfield avoids most of Cooper's flurry and finds his legs pretty quickly. I know Holyfield has heart and all, but watch the way he sets up the comeback in the round by making Cooper miss and counter punching him into trouble. Again, I stress how deceptively sharp and skillful he was.

It's true. But sooner or later he will be worn out by this because it's not healthy or smart slugging, wether it's the way he went to war with Bowe, or how he was accurately slicing Stewart and Cooper apart.

Tyson wasn't putting anything together in those fights, he would walk through tough shots, fire one or two of his own, and get caught in a grapple with the bigger man(which didn't help). A really hard fight for Mike and while Ruddock's size certainly helped, Tyson's sloppy offense is what hindered him the most. Obviously, he wasn't the Mike of the Douglas fights but he wasn't the weaving combination puncher he once was or even the prison comeback. The Tyson that fought Holyfield in the first fight, was throwing slick combinations and even going to the body more. I believe he would have knocked Ruddock out without much trouble.

Actually, Tyson was loading up big 1 punch ko's all night(And getting countered all night by Evander) against Holyfield, except for 1 round where he was throwing effective combinations, one of the few rounds he won, and of cource the 3rd round of the second fight wich he also easily won because of combinations and body attacks. Tyson's body punching in the Ruddock fights was the best volume body attack he ever displayed, and his combinations weren't prime like, but much better than his awful hail mary haymakers he was throwing in the first Holyfield fight.

Holyfield could do the same, perhaps even more effectively with his less poweful but still damaging, busier, punching.

Sure, but it would be employed diffirently because he wasn't a big man like Ruddock that would land the "Smash" many times. Holyfield was effective(effective as in hurting Tyson) with his hooks in their fights.

I disagree with all actually. Tyson wasn't that much quicker in the Ruddock fights, he wasn't working the body or throwing that many combos, and he was already having frustration mental problems with all the low blow and what not. Again, Tyson was going to the body and throwing combs in the first Holyfield fight; where was that sneaky straight right hand lead and slip in the Ruddock fight? That would have come in handy.

Tyson never got rid of his ring rust after prison and for a swarmer to have a 4 year lay off and fight a warrior at 30+ is not the same.
You're wrong about Tyson's body work in the Ruddock fights, and IMO he was never as frustrated as the Holyfield fights(Lets not forget about the headbutts that pissed him off).

[Thunder Lips]

"You might have gotten the wrong impression because of the immense applause and respect Holyfield has gotten from the 10th round where he was firing back after a beating"

Uh...no, not in the sense that Bowe just hammered him until he was tired and Evander just happened to still be standing because he has "heart." Outside of the big uppercut that, most of Bowe's flurry didn't get in there cleanly if at all. Holyfield blocked most of the punches, than crowded Bowe to the point that everything he threw was either smothered, blocked, or DOA. Bowe was tired because Evander avoided most of what should have been a match ending barrage. This is the underrated intelligence I'm talking about. Evander realized he was a sitting duck in the corner or tried to run again so he did the opposite and turned the course of the round. Yeah, he's got heart blahblah but lets not pretend Evander willed his way through these matches through this magical "heart" thing. The man was tough, but he was also a brilliant fighter that survived wars with much naturally stronger men; wars he wouldn't have survived if he mindlessly slugged and absorbed punishment as being implied.

"One word, uppercut. First Bowe landed a flush uppercut in the tenth that started one of the greatest HW rounds of all time. Then in the 11th another hellacious uppercut that started the knockdown."

And why did the uppercut catch Holyfield in the 10th? Bowe was jabbing the **** out of him everywhere he went on the outside and started dropping the right with accuracy. Evander rushed inside and held but after a long grapple, Bowe snuck a uppercut in out of nowhere. Evander really didn't have anywhere to run in this fight as Bowe fought the fight of his career. I thought it as borderline legal punch to the ear that dropped Evander after he got caught in the ropes in the 11th?

"It's true. But sooner or later he will be worn out by this because it's not healthy or smart slugging, wether it's the way he went to war with Bowe, or how he was accurately slicing Stewart and Cooper apart."

Holyfield is of average if not small size for a heavyweight and was not very quick on his feet. His jab was fine as a defensive or set up weapon but he couldn't control a fight with it if he wanted to as a heavy, not in 91 anyway. Inside counter punching was his best hope at winning these fights; where he could be in his range, beat guys to the punch, and crowd the bigger, longer man so they can't tee off from their range.

"Tyson never got rid of his ring rust after prison and for a swarmer to have a 4 year lay off and fight a warrior at 30+ is not the same."

The way he was spiraling mentally/physically and taking beatings, some time off might have been the best thing for him. Wasn't the initial Evander fight, cancelled because of a rib injury? And he did look better after prison, at least better than the lethargic mess that kept walking into clean haymakers in the last Ruddock fight. Talk about unnecessary wreckless wars, Tyson/Ruddock springs to mind. At that rate, Tyson may not have even made it to the first Holyfield fight in any kind of shape to do anything. This is just speculation on my part, but he was really looking bad before prison.

"You're wrong about Tyson's body work in the Ruddock fights, and IMO he was never as frustrated as the Holyfield fights(Lets not forget about the headbutts that pissed him off)."

What body work in the Ruddock fights? He gets a few in a spacious hooks inbetween head hunting but there is no body work to speak of. I'm talking one or two per round, and even fewer of any significance.

[Brassangel]

Originally posted by Bobby Pazuzu
Tyson was very poor in the 2nd Ruddock fight. IMO he actually looked similar to the way he did when he came out of prison. He seemed slower like he had been injected with led.

I think Holyfield vs Tyson in 1991 would have been very close. Tyson still threw decent combinations which might have been to key to hurting Holyfield (in their 1st fight he only threw combos in the 5th, which he won).
Yet Holyfield had the durabilty and desire to beat Tyson the way he did in 1996.

Prime vs prime, i say Tyson. But Holyfeild would always have severly tested Tysons heart. More so than Lewis.

I completely agree with this assertion. Even in their (real life) second fight, it started to look as though Tyson was going to do something to take command, as he was a little more physical in the clinches, throwing punches on the way in, and he came out firing combinations that caught Holyfield considerably off-guard in the 3rd round. Had that fight finished out, and Tyson won, he would have had a much better legacy, even with the previous losses to Douglas and Holyfield. Of course, it would have gone to a third fight, and we'd be talking about one of the greatest rivalries of all-time, right next to Ali-Frazier. When watching that fight, it looked, for a moment, like we were going to witness something great when the crowd started chanting "Tyson! Tyson!" in the 3rd round...I hope he got full and felt like it was worth it.

In their prime, I see Tyson winning, though it's still a war.

[BKM-]

Uh...no, not in the sense that Bowe just hammered him until he was tired and Evander just happened to still be standing because he has "heart." Outside of the big uppercut that, most of Bowe's flurry didn't get in there cleanly if at all. Holyfield blocked most of the punches, than crowded Bowe to the point that everything he threw was either smothered, blocked, or DOA. Bowe was tired because Evander avoided most of what should have been a match ending barrage. This is the underrated intelligence I'm talking about. Evander realized he was a sitting duck in the corner or tried to run again so he did the opposite and turned the course of the round. Yeah, he's got heart blahblah but lets not pretend Evander willed his way through these matches through this magical "heart" thing. The man was tough, but he was also a brilliant fighter that survived wars with much naturally stronger men; wars he wouldn't have survived if he mindlessly slugged and absorbed punishment as being implied.

I understand what you're saying. But what i'm saying is that despite the fact that he is skilled at slugging and dealing with adversity, there are some fighters he wouldn't be succesful against, and that would simply outmatch Holyfield in a slugfest. You mentioned how Bowe's punches were mostly blocked or missed, yet he had Evander out on his feet several times. Rid**** Bowe was a good powerful puncher but not as good as Tyson, neither as good in finishing off an opponent. It's my opinion that Tyson would beat Holyfield and it's yours that he wouldn't. lets agree to disagree on this.

And why did the uppercut catch Holyfield in the 10th? Bowe was jabbing the **** out of him everywhere he went on the outside and started dropping the right with accuracy. Evander rushed inside and held but after a long grapple, Bowe snuck a uppercut in out of nowhere. Evander really didn't have anywhere to run in this fight as Bowe fought the fight of his career. I thought it as borderline legal punch to the ear that dropped Evander after he got caught in the ropes in the 11th?

So why did you say Bowe wasn't as succesful on the inside? You agree his best shots came from the inside wich strengthens my point that Holyfield fought the wrong fight many times.

Holyfield is of average if not small size for a heavyweight and was not very quick on his feet. His jab was fine as a defensive or set up weapon but he couldn't control a fight with it if he wanted to as a heavy, not in 91 anyway. Inside counter punching was his best hope at winning these fights; where he could be in his range, beat guys to the punch, and crowd the bigger, longer man so they can't tee off from their range.

Actually, I disagree with both statements. Holyfield was fast on his feet, he loved to bounce around and his footwork was great as well. His jab WAS effective, as seen in the second Bowe fight where he used it more frequently. His jab was good, but he just stopped using it many times because he was too hungry for a slugfest wich i've been telling you so many times already. I can recall times Duva and other trainers were yelling at him to throw the ****ing jab.

The way he was spiraling mentally/physically and taking beatings, some time off might have been the best thing for him. Wasn't the initial Evander fight, cancelled because of a rib injury? And he did look better after prison, at least better than the lethargic mess that kept walking into clean haymakers in the last Ruddock fight. Talk about unnecessary wreckless wars, Tyson/Ruddock springs to mind. At that rate, Tyson may not have even made it to the first Holyfield fight in any kind of shape to do anything. This is just speculation on my part, but he was really looking bad before prison.

On a technical standpoint he did look worse than before, but PHYSICALLY he was still fit. Like the things i've mentioned: Heart, foot and hand quickness, combinations and body attacks. All of these would be in tyson's ability again instead of the tired 1 punch KO looking ghost of 1996.
Don't be fooled by fairy tales of "Buster Douglass ended Tyson" because Mike was a strong man that could take beatings. Many didn't expect him to be able to throw a damn punch after Lewis destroyed him, yet he didn't look so good in many years in the Danny Williams fight before messing up his knee. Lets face it, Tyson could afford slugging with Razor Ruddock because quite frankly, Ruddock didn't use any skills either. Tyson wouldn't fight the same way against Holyfield in 91. ****, I doubt 96 Tyson could even go the distance anymore, he looked that terrible stamina wise. The younger Tyson would be ready for a long night, if he came in top shape.

What body work in the Ruddock fights? He gets a few in a spacious hooks inbetween head hunting but there is no body work to speak of. I'm talking one or two per round, and even fewer of any significance.

Watch the fights. I can't be bothered to recall everything.

[Thunder Lips]

"You mentioned how Bowe's punches were mostly blocked or missed, yet he had Evander out on his feet several times."

Not from blocked or missed shots.

"So why did you say Bowe wasn't as succesful on the inside? You agree his best shots came from the inside wich strengthens my point that Holyfield fought the wrong fight many times."

Holyfield was ****ed wherever he went that night. Bowe may not be the one punch powerhouse that 91 Tyson was, but in that one fight, he was a much more complete and superior offensive fighter. Holyfield did try to move and jab against Bowe in the middle rounds and ended up getting tagged by the longer man who was unusually sharp and busy. And as said before, Bowe wasn't the same fighter in the rematch; his laziness and poor training leading up to the fight is evident and well documented.

"Lets face it, Tyson could afford slugging with Razor Ruddock because quite frankly, Ruddock didn't use any skills either. Tyson wouldn't fight the same way against Holyfield in 91."

Tyson couldn't afford it and he paid for it with two grueling fights that were much closer and costly than they had any right to be. So Tyson wouldn't try to and **** with Holyfield and get inside? That's the basis of your whole argument. I don't think his strategy would differ much. 96 Tyson's stamina looked fine, he took a beating up until the 11 th round and was still on his feet; obviously he was in great condition.


"Watch the fights. I can't be bothered to recall everything."

Uh...I did.