Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[Verstyle]

I'm going to have to disagree here though I can see the logic. However, I would point out that you can't count Holyfield out against Tyson based on how he was performing or fighting at the time. Going into their first fight, the last we saw of Holyfield was the Bowe, Mercer, and Moorer fights were he looked to be tail spinning into a shot punch drunk slugger. Which is nobody gave him a chance against the returned, surging Tyson. I've always looked at it as Holyfield simply raising his game against Tyson and having studied him for so long knew how to handle anything Mike could throw at him. Even after the Tyson series, Holyfield quickly started to detoriate and look sloppy again. The Mike that fought Holfyield was really sharp and dangerous; throwing crafty combinations that would have probably caught anybody less prepared and schooled.

I would even go so far as to say that the Tyson that fought Holyfield was better than the one that fought Ruddock. I know Mike showed his toughness in the Ruddock in the fights, but really, they were disappointing performances at the time. Ruddock was tough but he was slow handed and had no jab and it was expected that Mike could walk right through him..and instead we had grueling, sloppy, wars as Tyson had trouble connecting the dots so to speak. Great fights but really ****ing ugly. Meanwhile, Holyfield was peaking as a Heavyweight. I can't even see Tyson beating the Holyfield that lost to Bowe in the first fight(on the one night, Bowe was actually well conditioned, well prepared, and fought to his potentional.) Even, Holyfield admits he didn't think Bowe would show up in good enough shape to duke it out for 12 rounds. He wouldn't underestimate any version of Tyson.

WOW,and Yaman is a big Tyson fan too.

[BKM-]

I'm going to have to disagree here though I can see the logic. However, I would point out that you can't count Holyfield out against Tyson based on how he was performing or fighting at the time. Going into their first fight, the last we saw of Holyfield was the Bowe, Mercer, and Moorer fights were he looked to be tail spinning into a shot punch drunk slugger. Which is nobody gave him a chance against the returned, surging Tyson. I've always looked at it as Holyfield simply raising his game against Tyson and having studied him for so long knew how to handle anything Mike could throw at him. Even after the Tyson series, Holyfield quickly started to detoriate and look sloppy again. The Mike that fought Holfyield was really sharp and dangerous; throwing crafty combinations that would have probably caught anybody less prepared and schooled.

I would even go so far as to say that the Tyson that fought Holyfield was better than the one that fought Ruddock. I know Mike showed his toughness in the Ruddock in the fights, but really, they were disappointing performances at the time. Ruddock was tough but he was slow handed and had no jab and it was expected that Mike could walk right through him..and instead we had grueling, sloppy, wars as Tyson had trouble connecting the dots so to speak. Great fights but really ****ing ugly. Meanwhile, Holyfield was peaking as a Heavyweight. I can't even see Tyson beating the Holyfield that lost to Bowe in the first fight(on the one night, Bowe was actually well conditioned, well prepared, and fought to his potentional.) Even, Holyfield admits he didn't think Bowe would show up in good enough shape to duke it out for 12 rounds. He wouldn't underestimate any version of Tyson.

I would never count Holyfield out against anyone. But from a logical boxing point of view it becomes clear that Holyfield would screw himself. Everytime he tasted the power of a puncher, he threw the jab in the garbage can, forgot the lateral movement as well as covering himself up thinking his head could take the shots, and went to war. Even against Foreman, at a few times he starting slugging away, he was lucky that old Foreman was too slow to fire back. The second Bowe fight, the one where he was supposedly a Boxer again, he still had tendencies to trade. Holyfield's discipline(in the ring) was terrible, despite this being the reason he had so many exciting fights. But there's no way he could just go toe to toe with Tyson, and become sloppy on the inside, go to war every time his instincts kicked in. And I don't think Holyfield would push him back as easily at his lighter weight. Also, the jab was an important factor, it kept Tyson from setting up. I remember the 6th round of their first fight, once Holyfield tasted that right uppercut he didn't follow trough and was visibly hurt. It was always remarkable when holyfield was hurt, you never knew what was gonna happen. He would either crumble, or suddenly fire back. I never saw him fire back when Tyson hurt him, people say he went toe to toe with Tyson, but that's when Tyson couldn't connect himself. It was never a slugfest. But a fight in 91..it would be much more diffirent.

The Tyson in the second holyfield fight resembles the prime 90s Tyson much more than the first fight. He was in much better shape and as we can see in the second round his combinations were much more accurate. But you still can't look past a 4 year lay off and the age for a swarmer like him.

Now Bert Cooper, and even Mercer are good and great punchers with a lot of power, but none of them compare to Tyson, a young one at that. Yes Ruddock fights were ugly and gruel, but that was a guy with a lot of heart, and a big size advantage over Tyson- not a much smaller man in Holyfield.

Holyfield's showings against Moorer and the last Bowe fights were flukes. Maybe not the the outcome, but Holyfield had all sorts of problems regarding his health. I don't remember the exact things right now, but he didn't have heart problems or any of that. The people around him screwed him up at the time giving him too much of this or that. So simple put, Holyfield was well healed by the time he got to fight Tyson. The man has been injury prone at times, but we can see, even today(Compare the Donald fight to his latest fight), that he can overcome it when he is treated properly.

[Franko]

When you're that good that always will be questions.It comes with the territory.

Which is exactly the point!

[The Iron Man]

Just wanna say a few things after reading the last few pages, Number one, tyson was an intelligent fighter and a knowlageble person on Boxing. He just lost the dicipline once Rooney left, he resorts to slugging in times of dismay as he knows he can knock them out in one punch, but this didnt always work. As for being rocked, why does it matter everyone his hit hard in their life time, i mean Bruno has one of the best KO records there is no shame in being rocked by him. What shows heart is fighting on, which is what he done against Bruno and Smith to eventually win.

[Thunder Lips]

"Even against Foreman, at a few times he starting slugging away, he was lucky that old Foreman was too slow to fire back."

Holyfield was not wreckless at all in this fight and was never in any real danger; of course when he had the opportunity, he opened up in controlled bursts of combinations that were of little risk to him and went unanswered. Holyfield knew what he was doing and it's a testament to George's shocking conditioning and durability that he never went down though he was clearly out on his feet in several instances and ready to go in the 9th; afterwards Holyfiled visibly backed off and coasted. When smart old George did get lucky enough to catch him, the shots were mostly blocked, deflected, or quickly recovered from.

The Bowe fights are a completely different animal from anything else Holyfield fought and probably would ever fight against any version of Tyson. Holyfield got caught napping against Cooper after he dropped him so easily in the first, having been preparing for and wanting Tyson on that date he overlooked a dangerous opponent. After he got his bell rang, he did recover and dominated.

"But there's no way he could just go toe to toe with Tyson, and become sloppy on the inside, go to war every time his instincts kicked in. And I don't think Holyfield would push him back as easily at his lighter weight. Also, the jab was an important factor, it kept Tyson from setting up. "

You have to look at the flipside as well. Ruddock survived two inside wars with Tyson despite being slower, bad on his feet, lacking any real jab to speak of, and though he was a big puncher, he was never as accurate, diverse, or busy as a Holyfield. Ruddock is also notoriously easy to hit and not exactly the most durable big man. Not only did he survive but he gave Mike total hell. The reason being that Tyson was already becoming a lunging, one punch at a time head hunter with lazy defense. Tyson proved he was tough in those fights but technically he was quite bad. Hell, the Bowe that fought Holyfield in the first fight would have messed that version of Tyson up to as he is a much better, active puncher than Ruddock, could avoid getting hit better, and at least fought tall sometimes.

Seriously compare Holyfield/Bowe I to Tyson/Ruddock. Two different leagues my friend, and I'm a huge Tyson fan and I loath lazy ass Bowe to no end.

"The Tyson in the second holyfield fight resembles the prime 90s Tyson much more than the first fight. He was in much better shape and as we can see in the second round his combinations were much more accurate. But you still can't look past a 4 year lay off and the age for a swarmer like him."

Tyson would have probably won the second fight if he didn't go ****ing nuts over a little cut. IIRC, I had him winning that damn round before he got hungry and took off Evander's ear.


"Holyfield's showings against Moorer and the last Bowe fights were flukes. Maybe not the the outcome, but Holyfield had all sorts of problems regarding his health. I don't remember the exact things right now, but he didn't have heart problems or any of that. The people around him screwed him up at the time giving him too much of this or that. So simple put, Holyfield was well healed by the time he got to fight Tyson. The man has been injury prone at times, but we can see, even today(Compare the Donald fight to his latest fight), that he can overcome it when he is treated properly."

Right after the last Tyson fight, a pathetic looking Vaugh Bean took Holyfield to the distance. Holyfield wouldn't ko another contender convincingly outside of a fat ass Moorer. There is something truly special and unique about the way Holyfield turned it up against Mike.

[Thunder Lips]

Anyways, if the fight was to happen, I can't see the easily frustrated, low blow throwing, sloppy head hunting Mike of the Ruddock fights doing much against 91 Holyfield. He would get his licks in of course, but Holyfield can take a few shots from anybody, anybody. The busier and more accurate Evander would probably out work him on the inside and out, bust him up with vicious combinations but probably not knock him out on his way to a decision.

[BKM-]

Holyfield was not wreckless at all in this fight and was never in any real danger; of course when he had the opportunity, he opened up in controlled bursts of combinations that were of little risk to him and went unanswered. Holyfield knew what he was doing and it's a testament to George's shocking conditioning and durability that he never went down though he was clearly out on his feet in several instances and ready to go in the 9th; afterwards Holyfiled visibly backed off and coasted. When smart old George did get lucky enough to catch him, the shots were mostly blocked, deflected, or quickly recovered from.

He wasn't because he didn't do what he did against the other hard hitters he fought. But he still had a few tendencies to get Foreman out, and yeah you're right he wasn't really in danger doing that since George was totally out on his feet. But when Foreman did hit Holyfield it was effective. Remember the jabs that snapped Holyfield's head back on a few occations, as well as the right hands that got in, Holyfield was back into his "hurt mode", when he's just bouncing on his toes freezing like he does when he's hurt.

The Bowe fights are a completely different animal from anything else Holyfield fought and probably would ever fight against any version of Tyson. Holyfield got caught napping against Cooper after he dropped him so easily in the first, having been preparing for and wanting Tyson on that date he overlooked a dangerous opponent. After he got his bell rang, he did recover and dominated.

Sorry, I didn't quite catch what you meant with your first sentence. You mind telling me again buddy.
And I think you haven't looked clearly in the Cooper fight. First off, Holyfield dropped Cooper with a vicious left to the body that landed on the sweet spot. That can happen to anybody. And Holyfield surtainly wasn't napping. He was doing what he does worst, slugging like a puncher with no discipline, that's no way for a blown up Cruiserweight to fight. The knockdown started when they were trading in the ropes, and he left himself open for a huge counter right hand from Cooper, then went into the ropes. Even after that, he was still getting clocked himself and could have finished Cooper off without going trough that much hell. No jab at all, no lateral movements, nothing that makes Evander a Holyfield.

You have to look at the flipside as well. Ruddock survived two inside wars with Tyson despite being slower, bad on his feet, lacking any real jab to speak of, and though he was a big puncher, he was never as accurate, diverse, or busy as a Holyfield. Ruddock is also notoriously easy to hit and not exactly the most durable big man. Not only did he survive but he gave Mike total hell. The reason being that Tyson was already becoming a lunging, one punch at a time head hunter with lazy defense. Tyson proved he was tough in those fights but technically he was quite bad. Hell, the Bowe that fought Holyfield in the first fight would have messed that version of Tyson up to as he is a much better, active puncher than Ruddock, could avoid getting hit better, and at least fought tall sometimes.

Seriously compare Holyfield/Bowe I to Tyson/Ruddock. Two different leagues my friend, and I'm a huge Tyson fan and I loath lazy ass Bowe to no end.

It also had to do with styles. Tyson, as always, was fighting with a much bigger man than himself. Ruddock's best punch was landing nicely on the short crouching Tyson and it was easy for him to lean on him too. Tyson wouldn't face any of these problems that Ruddock gave him, just diffirent ones.
I'm not saying Ruddock is better or anything like Holyfield and I surtainly don't think this is so significant. Tyson would fight Holyfield, not another Ruddock. Talking about Ruddock's jab or speed won't change the fact that Holyfield would screw himself with his wreckless slugging ways.
My point is very clear if you look at the first 2 Bowe fights. You'd think he would learn from his first fight and not slug again, giving the bigger Bowe a chance(heck, he might have never lost to Bowe if he never started a WW3) but he was still going at it, though not as much, it could be a big enough mistake against a puncher like Tyson(one that is in a diffirent league than Bowe or any puncher Holyfield fought).

Tyson would have probably won the second fight if he didn't go ****ing nuts over a little cut. IIRC, I had him winning that damn round before he got hungry and took off Evander's ear.

That's not the point. And that little cut was preventing Tyson from seeing with his eye.

Right after the last Tyson fight, a pathetic looking Vaugh Bean took Holyfield to the distance. Holyfield wouldn't ko another contender convincingly outside of a fat ass Moorer. There is something truly special and unique about the way Holyfield turned it up against Mike

Holyfield was never an impressive knockout machine. As long as he didn't have health problems, he would be the best he could be for his age. I might have misunderstood you, but i'm trying to say that Tyson wasn't fighting the Holyfield from the Moorer fight and others.
But yes, it was truly a great performance for Holyfield.

Anyways, if the fight was to happen, I can't see the easily frustrated, low blow throwing, sloppy head hunting Mike of the Ruddock fights doing much against 91 Holyfield. He would get his licks in of course, but Holyfield can take a few shots from anybody, anybody. The busier and more accurate Evander would probably out work him on the inside and out, bust him up with vicious combinations but probably not knock him out on his way to a decision.

And I can't see the headbut skull cracking low blow throwing blown up Cruiserweight maintaining his calm and Boxing Tyson all the way to a UD.
Holyfield can take shots from anybody, but not for a very long time. He had never faced a puncher or finisher like Tyson. As soon as he would get rocked a few times, the warrior would come out and he'd throw his skills all the way back to Atlanta Georgia. Then it would get ugly for him.

[StackMo]

Tyson was always grossly overrated by fanboys and still is. His prime was relatively short for a 'reason'.

[Brassangel]

In the 5th round of their first fight, Tyson landed a clean combination on Holyfield (hook to the body, right uppercut to the chin), that caused Holyfield to stagger back a few steps. On the slow motion replay, it's visible that Evander's brow is a little furrowed, if almost concerned about whether Mike was starting to get comfortable. Shortly after, Evander tried to get in close and eventually, the head-butt occurred, cutting Tyson's eye. From that point on, he kept rubbing noggins right on the sore spot visibly irritating Tyson.

In the 2nd round of the second fight, Tyson starting pushing Holyfield in the clinches, something that even the commentators make note of. When Evander would throw a punch in close, Mike would return fire, and started to throw punches on the way into a clinch. Once this happened, Evander kept trying to force the action inside, and whoops! We get another head-butt, again cutting Mike's eye. He continued to rub his noggin on Tyson's whenever they got in close, again irritating the cut and the boxer. As we all witnessed, Tyson came out furiously in the 3rd round, actually scoring heavily, and once more Holyfield's face looked concerned; the crowd even starts to chant "Tyson! Tyson!" That is, of course, until Mike decided he was hungry...

The first loss to Evander actually taught Mike a few things about him, and he could very well have won the rematch, securing a much better place in the history books. Bert Sugar is a ****** who thinks that Tyson just gave up in the 2nd fight because he couldn't beat Holyfield. We all know that this wasn't the case, and that Mike was simply a nutjob.

Both fights prove that when facing the kind of power that Mike presented, even when throwing one punch at a time, in lunging fashion, Evander tried to turn the fight into a rough-and-tumble war that, were it not for a few choice head-butts, could have gone severely wrong.

In 1991, it would have been a much more entertaining bout, as Tyson would have been hungry to regain the title with the Douglas experience to learn from. He and Ruddock had a little bad blood, thus creating the slugfest they became.

[Thunder Lips]

"Sorry, I didn't quite catch what you meant with your first sentence. You mind telling me again buddy."

I think Holyfield fought smart in the first Bowe fight. He needed to be on the inside of the bigger man, where he could smother Bowe and get his shots off. He got the worst of it when he got caught trying to work his way on the in. Holyfield was using good movement and countering well but Bowe was just on that night and was incredibly active and accurate. See, this wouldn't be the case in a Tyson fight, the Cooper comparison works much better I think but even that's not completely fair.

Hell, the usual opinion of the fight is that it was a ****** one by Bowe who despite winning didn't make things easy on himself by exchanging with Holyfield on the inside so much. He gave Holyfield the chance to steal it it, not the other way around.

The other fights were just too weird really. The second had the fan man, crappy Bowe conditioning, the delay ****ing things up, and the third fight was a war between what looked like two guys on their last legs.


"And I think you haven't looked clearly in the Cooper fight. First off, Holyfield dropped Cooper with a vicious left to the body that landed on the sweet spot. That can happen to anybody. And Holyfield surtainly wasn't napping. He was doing what he does worst, slugging like a puncher with no discipline, that's no way for a blown up Cruiserweight to fight. The knockdown started when they were trading in the ropes, and he left himself open for a huge counter right hand from Cooper, then went into the ropes. Even after that, he was still getting clocked himself and could have finished Cooper off without going trough that much hell. No jab at all, no lateral movements, nothing that makes Evander a Holyfield."

Once, he got his legs mostly under him; Holyfield boxed near perfectly in the last four rounds and took Cooper apart. Even when he wasn't jabbing and moving in the fourth, he was smothering Cooper and making him miss while ripping him with nasty shots. Cooper didn't really land anything of consequence after the big shot. Holyfield was terribly lazy in the third when he got caught, barely commiting to the clinches and what not...somehow I don't think he would do that against Tyson. Holyfield also had his training schedule messed up as he was originally training to face Tyson and took the fight on short notice, not much of an excuse but he did appear to be having fatigue and other issues. It is a miracle the fight wasn't a complete disaster for him and for a lesser heavyweight it would have been.

And truthfully I can't see 91 Tyson doing any better than Cooper did in that round. That shot was one the hardest Holyfield ever got caught with in his entire career(including the Tyson fights), yet he recovered quickly and made Cooper pay when he foolishly tried to overwhelm him.

"It also had to do with styles. Tyson, as always, was fighting with a much bigger man than himself. Ruddock's best punch was landing nicely on the short crouching Tyson and it was easy for him to lean on him too. Tyson wouldn't face any of these problems that Ruddock gave him, just diffirent ones. I'm not saying Ruddock is better or anything like Holyfield and I surtainly don't think this is so significant. Tyson would fight Holyfield, not another Ruddock. Talking about Ruddock's jab or speed won't change the fact that Holyfield would screw himself with his wreckless slugging ways."

If Tyson couldn't stop Ruddock, I don't think he could stop Holyfield. Sorry, I don't see it happening. Ruddock is slightly bigger than Evander but he was not nearly as great at avoiding shots or taking them. He was stronger but he wasn't as skillful or active as puncher yet he found Tyson coming in everytime. Ruddock is longer than Evander, but both have big reach advantages over Mike. Evander would score at will with combinations as Mike tried to close the distance.

And again, I don't think Evander was as wreckless as your making him out to be. Even in the infamous close Bowe exchanges of the first fight, he was making him miss and finding his own spots. He took the most punishment when he was trying to push forward, something he wouldn't have to do against Mike.


"Holyfield was never an impressive knockout machine. As long as he didn't have health problems, he would be the best he could be for his age. I might have misunderstood you, but i'm trying to say that Tyson wasn't fighting the Holyfield from the Moorer fight and others.
But yes, it was truly a great performance for Holyfield."

Holyfield clearly stepped up his game in the Tyson fights. That's what I'm saying. Even when he seemingly had his health from that timeframe he was never that impressive again.

"And I can't see the headbut skull cracking low blow throwing blown up Cruiserweight maintaining his calm and Boxing Tyson all the way to a UD.
Holyfield can take shots from anybody, but not for a very long time. He had never faced a puncher or finisher like Tyson. As soon as he would get rocked a few times, the warrior would come out and he'd throw his skills all the way back to Atlanta Georgia. Then it would get ugly for him."

Holyfield was deceptively skillful, even as a brawler. He could slip and take punches well and was a monsterous counter puncher. Tyson had his power but that is all he had left as he wasn't a crisp dynamic combo puncher at this point anymore. He was a sloppy lunger. At least Cooper was working the body, actually looking more like old Tyson than Mike himself ever did in the early 90s. Yeah, the only chance this version of Tyson has is for Holyfield to completely **** up and eat a sit load of clean shots and I don't like those odds. Thankfully, Tyson got some of skills back when they actually did meet.