Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[leff]

Tyson was always grossly overrated by fanboys and still is. His prime was relatively short for a 'reason'.

totally agree


tyson had the talent but badly lacked heart and disiplin

[StackMo]

And mental and emotional stability.

[BKM-]

I think Holyfield fought smart in the first Bowe fight. He needed to be on the inside of the bigger man, where he could smother Bowe and get his shots off. He got the worst of it when he got caught trying to work his way on the in. Holyfield was using good movement and countering well but Bowe was just on that night and was incredibly active and accurate. See, this wouldn't be the case in a Tyson fight, the Cooper comparison works much better I think but even that's not completely fair.

He should not have been on the inside at all, Bowe was a master of inside fighting. That was HIS game, and Holyfield gave the fight to him that way. In the second fight he was much smarter, staying on the outside jabbing and turning him around, making him miss and great countering as well.
One other thing, the young Tyson was much more agile than the post prison Tyson. He was better on the inside because of this, Mike lost some of his foot quickness. He used to step side to side to throw a hook to the body. Also in the 90s against Ruddock, he was still doing this at times. It would be useful against Holyfield because he was hurt by Tyson's body punches in their fights.

Hell, the usual opinion of the fight is that it was a ****** one by Bowe who despite winning didn't make things easy on himself by exchanging with Holyfield on the inside so much. He gave Holyfield the chance to steal it it, not the other way around.

He beat Evander on the inside and outslugged him, wich was exactly Bowe's game plan and worked the best for him and his abilities.

The other fights were just too weird really. The second had the fan man, crappy Bowe conditioning, the delay ****ing things up, and the third fight was a war between what looked like two guys on their last legs.

That's true, though I look at the first half of the second fight with more significance.

Once, he got his legs mostly under him; Holyfield boxed near perfectly in the last four rounds and took Cooper apart. Even when he wasn't jabbing and moving in the fourth, he was smothering Cooper and making him miss while ripping him with nasty shots. Cooper didn't really land anything of consequence after the big shot. Holyfield was terribly lazy in the third when he got caught, barely commiting to the clinches and what not...somehow I don't think he would do that against Tyson. Holyfield also had his training schedule messed up as he was originally training to face Tyson and took the fight on short notice, not much of an excuse but he did appear to be having fatigue and other issues. It is a miracle the fight wasn't a complete disaster for him and for a lesser heavyweight it would have been.

It's true because Cooper was hurt badly by Evander(showed great heart once again) at one point, it went downhill from there on. He didn't get his legs back again and was a punch bag at the end of the fight, like Lampley said "TARGET PRACTISE!!!!" LOL.
I don't see how you think Holyfield was lazy in the third. Fact is, he chose to trade with Cooper and hook with a hooker, sooner or later he would get countered by a bomb and that's exactly what happened against a much less dangerous opponent in Cooper. Holyfield did not fight a perfect fight, later on as well he did not jab at all, even the commentators noticed. Against Tyson, a guy with a better chin, better overall punching power and ability, speed etc. Superior to Bert Cooper in every way. Holyfield would pay for a mistake, so much in fact he would be in debth.

And truthfully I can't see 91 Tyson doing any better than Cooper did in that round. That shot was one the hardest Holyfield ever got caught with in his entire career(including the Tyson fights), yet he recovered quickly and made Cooper pay when he foolishly tried to overwhelm him.

Tyson was one of the best finishers of all time and I don't see holyfield's jelly legs and open defence lasting a barrage of left hooks, right crosses, uppercuts..every one of these punches by Tyson were dynamite. I can't see Evander survive that in my opinion. Maybe he would, but I don't think the ref would allow it to continue.

If Tyson couldn't stop Ruddock, I don't think he could stop Holyfield. Sorry, I don't see it happening. Ruddock is slightly bigger than Evander but he was not nearly as great at avoiding shots or taking them. He was stronger but he wasn't as skillful or active as puncher yet he found Tyson coming in everytime. Ruddock is longer than Evander, but both have big reach advantages over Mike. Evander would score at will with combinations as Mike tried to close the distance.
And again, I don't think Evander was as wreckless as your making him out to be. Even in the infamous close Bowe exchanges of the first fight, he was making him miss and finding his own spots. He took the most punishment when he was trying to push forward, something he wouldn't have to do against Mike.

Tyson did stop Ruddock, and one of the things preventing him from doing it again or quicker, was Ruddock's size. He would lean on Tyson, Tyson had to push him back many times etc. This took a lot out of him, and I could see the same kind of thing happen if he fought Rid**** Bowe. With 1991 Evander Holyfield, mass wouldn't be a factor, Holyfield would be the smaller man.
And like I said, Ruddock found Tyson in every time because of his uppercuts, wich landed perfectly on Tyson every time, and his reach and accurate punching.

Holyfield clearly stepped up his game in the Tyson fights. That's what I'm saying. Even when he seemingly had his health from that timeframe he was never that impressive again.

It's true.

Holyfield was deceptively skillful, even as a brawler. He could slip and take punches well and was a monsterous counter puncher. Tyson had his power but that is all he had left as he wasn't a crisp dynamic combo puncher at this point anymore. He was a sloppy lunger. At least Cooper was working the body, actually looking more like old Tyson than Mike himself ever did in the early 90s. Yeah, the only chance this version of Tyson has is for Holyfield to completely **** up and eat a sit load of clean shots and I don't like those odds. Thankfully, Tyson got some of skills back when they actually did meet.

Tyson still had some key elements, crucial ones that he really needed to beat Holyfield.
Heart
Combinations
Body punching
foot and overall quickness
These are some of the things he lacked in his fights against Holyfield. And it would be enough to beat mister Holyfield and his wreckless tactics if he had enough momentums going his way.

[Poet682006]

He should not have been on the inside at all, Bowe was a master of inside fighting. That was HIS game, and Holyfield gave the fight to him that way. In the second fight he was much smarter, staying on the outside jabbing and turning him around, making him miss and great countering as well.
One other thing, the young Tyson was much more agile than the post prison Tyson. He was better on the inside because of this, Mike lost some of his foot quickness. He used to step side to side to throw a hook to the body. Also in the 90s against Ruddock, he was still doing this at times. It would be useful against Holyfield because he was hurt by Tyson's body punches in their fights.



He beat Evander on the inside and outslugged him, wich was exactly Bowe's game plan and worked the best for him and his abilities.



That's true, though I look at the first half of the second fight with more significance.



It's true because Cooper was hurt badly by Evander(showed great heart once again) at one point, it went downhill from there on. He didn't get his legs back again and was a punch bag at the end of the fight, like Lampley said "TARGET PRACTISE!!!!" LOL.
I don't see how you think Holyfield was lazy in the third. Fact is, he chose to trade with Cooper and hook with a hooker, sooner or later he would get countered by a bomb and that's exactly what happened against a much less dangerous opponent in Cooper. Holyfield did not fight a perfect fight, later on as well he did not jab at all, even the commentators noticed. Against Tyson, a guy with a better chin, better overall punching power and ability, speed etc. Superior to Bert Cooper in every way. Holyfield would pay for a mistake, so much in fact he would be in debth.



Tyson was one of the best finishers of all time and I don't see holyfield's jelly legs and open defence lasting a barrage of left hooks, right crosses, uppercuts..every one of these punches by Tyson were dynamite. I can't see Evander survive that in my opinion. Maybe he would, but I don't think the ref would allow it to continue.



Tyson did stop Ruddock, and one of the things preventing him from doing it again or quicker, was Ruddock's size. He would lean on Tyson, Tyson had to push him back many times etc. This took a lot out of him, and I could see the same kind of thing happen if he fought Rid**** Bowe. With 1991 Evander Holyfield, mass wouldn't be a factor, Holyfield would be the smaller man.
And like I said, Ruddock found Tyson in every time because of his uppercuts, wich landed perfectly on Tyson every time, and his reach and accurate punching.



It's true.



Tyson still had some key elements, crucial ones that he really needed to beat Holyfield.
Heart
Combinations
Body punching
foot and overall quickness
These are some of the things he lacked in his fights against Holyfield. And it would be enough to beat mister Holyfield and his wreckless tactics if he had enough momentums going his way.

Good, well reasoned post as I've come to expect from you Yaman One quibble I'll make is his body-punching. He never liked body-punching and would never sustain a consistant body attack in any of his prime fights: He could never resist the urge to go back to head-hunting.

Poet

[Mike Tyson77]

totally agree


tyson had the talent but badly lacked heart and disiplin

Watch the the two Razer Ruddock fights, e****ally the 6th round of the first.

[BKM-]

Good, well reasoned post as I've come to expect from you Yaman One quibble I'll make is his body-punching. He never liked body-punching and would never sustain a consistant body attack in any of his prime fights: He could never resist the urge to go back to head-hunting.

Poet

Thanks bro. And yes I agree. It was frustrating to watch him sometimes because you know he could have been a great body puncher, and although he has showed a good amount of this(The Green and Ruddock fights for example) he never applied this kind of pressure in every fight. It would have worked wonders for him.
His head hunting ways were part of his mental mindset, that is what I think. Rooney had helped him get trough it sometimes, and without him on his side he would not be able to overcome his frustrations to Box again.

[The Iron Man]

I think tyson was a good body puncher and he focused on that aspect alot. He would punish the body, much more than other big hitters such as Foreman,Lewis and Liston

[leff]

Watch the the two Razer Ruddock fights, e****ally the 6th round of the first.

havent seen em in a while and cant get them hereso......whats your point?

[Poet682006]

Thanks bro. And yes I agree. It was frustrating to watch him sometimes because you know he could have been a great body puncher, and although he has showed a good amount of this(The Green and Ruddock fights for example) he never applied this kind of pressure in every fight. It would have worked wonders for him.
His head hunting ways were part of his mental mindset, that is what I think. Rooney had helped him get trough it sometimes, and without him on his side he would not be able to overcome his frustrations to Box again.

To tell you the truth if I was training him I'd tell him not to throw a sing effing head shot until he'd pounded the dudes ribcage for four or five rounds and the guy drops his guard. And make him watch film of Mike McCallum every God damn day LOL!

Poet

[Thunder Lips]

"One other thing, the young Tyson was much more agile than the post prison Tyson. He was better on the inside because of this, Mike lost some of his foot quickness. He used to step side to side to throw a hook to the body. Also in the 90s against Ruddock, he was still doing this at times. It would be useful against Holyfield because he was hurt by Tyson's body punches in their fights."

Well, pre-Bruno Tyson would be a different story. I think he would have a much better chance at any version of Holyfield. I just don't don't see the 91Tyson that fought Ruddock getting the job done.

"He beat Evander on the inside and outslugged him, wich was exactly Bowe's game plan and worked the best for him and his abilities."

I never really got the impression that Bowe outslugged him in the fight, Holyfield's worse moments were when he get caught coming in not when he was inside.

Holyfied was able to stick and move better in the second fight because Bowe was out of shape and couldn't catch a cold.

" Holyfield did not fight a perfect fight, later on as well he did not jab at all, even the commentators noticed. "

Holyfield does use the jab effectively in the last several rounds and the first before the knockdown, I just watched the fight recently. After the predicted recovery round, he starts catching Cooper with the jab, using movement, and digging in combinations. The commentary misses it as they were often very unfair to Holyfield back then but eh....

"Tyson was one of the best finishers of all time and I don't see holyfield's jelly legs and open defence lasting a barrage of left hooks, right crosses, uppercuts..every one of these punches by Tyson were dynamite. I can't see Evander survive that in my opinion. Maybe he would, but I don't think the ref would allow it to continue."

Holyfield avoids most of Cooper's flurry and finds his legs pretty quickly. I know Holyfield has heart and all, but watch the way he sets up the comeback in the round by making Cooper miss and counter punching him into trouble. Again, I stress how deceptively sharp and skillful he was.

"Tyson did stop Ruddock, and one of the things preventing him from doing it again or quicker, was Ruddock's size. He would lean on Tyson, Tyson had to push him back many times etc."

Tyson wasn't putting anything together in those fights, he would walk through tough shots, fire one or two of his own, and get caught in a grapple with the bigger man(which didn't help). A really hard fight for Mike and while Ruddock's size certainly helped, Tyson's sloppy offense is what hindered him the most. Obviously, he wasn't the Mike of the Douglas fights but he wasn't the weaving combination puncher he once was or even the prison comeback. The Tyson that fought Holyfield in the first fight, was throwing slick combinations and even going to the body more. I believe he would have knocked Ruddock out without much trouble.


" And like I said, Ruddock found Tyson in every time because of his uppercuts, wich landed perfectly on Tyson every time, and his reach and accurate punching."

Holyfield could do the same, perhaps even more effectively with his less poweful but still damaging, busier, punching.

"Tyson still had some key elements, crucial ones that he really needed to beat Holyfield.
Heart
Combinations
Body punching
foot and overall quickness
These are some of the things he lacked in his fights against Holyfield. And it would be enough to beat mister Holyfield and his wreckless tactics if he had enough momentums going his way"

I disagree with all actually. Tyson wasn't that much quicker in the Ruddock fights, he wasn't working the body or throwing that many combos, and he was already having frustration mental problems with all the low blow and what not. Again, Tyson was going to the body and throwing combs in the first Holyfield fight; where was that sneaky straight right hand lead and slip in the Ruddock fight? That would have come in handy.