Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[Thunder Lips]

"Whatever excuses will be made for Bowe, he looked good in the second fight. Again, I feel like you have been mislead, because Bowe was looking sloppy and worse than before because of Holyfield's strategy as well."

No doubt. Holyfield was very sharp in the fight. But it is difficult to get past the fact that Bowe went from a busy accurate combination puncher to a sloppy one punch at a time lead foot. Bowe also ******ly burned himself out in the first round, trying for a quick knockout for some illogical reason.

"A victory for Bowe, that's what(look at how close the second fight was).
This is the type of wreckless slugging behavior i'm talking about. It would cost Evander fights. "

As far as the fight first: the most damaging tide turning punches from Bowe came in Round 7, 8 and 9 when he was catching Holyfield with the big straight right before he could get in his range; this is what ****ed his left eye up and why he quit working the jab effectively. I won't say Holyfield was being a wreckless brawler, but he wasn't as busy as he should have been when he was trying make his moves inside. Hell, the only real inside back and forth exchanges were dominated by him in the early rounds and did the most damage to Bowe. Obviously, Bowe was slower than owl **** in the second fight and he couldn't catch Evander coming or going most of the time.

"Tyson was never in serious danger of losing because he knew he could beat him, and had the the intense drive to do so(Something he lacked after prison). And lets see here, Tyson took head snapping left hooks and Smashes from a tall, very powerful 230-240 pound big man for nearly 20 rounds. Yet some people still think Holyfield would knock Tyson the **** out. Makes no sence."

I must disagree again. Tyson had a quite a few scary moments in those fights and with the low blows mounting he stood a good chance of even losing the second fight on points or even dq. Again, I'm not sure if Holyfield would knock him out but he is certainly a busier, sharper combination puncher than Ruddock. And while you don't believe Holyfield used the jab and movement enough, Ruddock had no jab, hand speed, and little effective movement.

"And what I meant was: Just because Tyson fought one way against a tall powerful slugger, wouldn't mean he would be fighting the exact replica way against a skilled blown up Cruiserweight. But yes, once Evander gets cheeky and starts trading with Tyson, a couple of uppercuts to the body and head would make him think twice for a while until the fight goes on, when Evander keeps making the same mistake paying for it."

I can't see Evander making the same mistake over and over again, that is not Evander at even his worst. He didn't do that against Cooper nor did he really do it against Bowe in the first fight. I also don't think Holyfield would have brawled on the inside with Mike at any stage of his career, he would be tieing him up like everybody else did; regradless of what he did against Bowe or Cooper.

"And the kind of finisher a prime Tyson was, It wouldn't be looking good for Holyfield. In the meanwhile Holyfield would win most rounds."

The Tyson of the Ruddock fights wasn't that great of finisher.

And you are wrong that 96 Tyson had fine stamina. He looked pathetic. He was gassed early in the fight.[/QUOTE]

I don't see any evidence of him being gassed. Tyson was coming forward and swinging all night, despite eating tons of punches and bullied in the grapple.

Look, I understand the logic behind your argument but it boils down to this: You see Tyson battling it out against a strong tough fighter in Ruddock while I see Tyson struggling with a guy who history has revealed to be a hard puncher and nothing more. And I don't think I'll ever see the wreckless brawler in Evander that you do nor do I believe he would trade with Tyson at any point in his career; regardless of how he performed against anybody else. I mean a healthly Evander had problems with Bobby Czyz before the Tyson fight IIRC.

[Franko]

Don't get me wrong, I don't BLAME Mike for the quality of his opposition: He could only fight who was there. What I AM saying is the quality of his opposition HAS to temper any evaluation of his abilities as a fighter. I agree Thomas was a damn good fighter just as I do Bruno. The problem is, at the time he faced Tyson Thomas was going in and out of rehab and I don't believe he could fight anywhere near his peak abilities. I wasn't referring to the score cards where Tucker was concerned I was referring tp the fact he broke his hand in the second round and was a one-handed fighter thereafter. My belief is if he HADN'T broken his hand he may very well have beaten Tyson.

Ah yes Berbick. Only being knocked out twice means he had a pretty good chin not that he was a pretty good fighter. People point to his performance against Larry Holmes as evidence Trevor could fight. The problem with that is at that point in his career Holmes was coming in undertrained and out of shape. Check out the Carl Williams fight or better yet the first Spinks fight. Doing a decent job against an opponent who's undertrained and unmotivated doesn't really say anything about how good YOU are.

As for the dude who's downing Bruno.....you're sounding like the typical American boxing fan who only knows Bruno from his KO losses to Tyson. Why don't actually WATCH some of Bruno's fights besides the Tyson ones? Hmmm?

Poet

If you're referring to me as that dude then it won't be the only thing that you've got wrong on this thread because i'm British, and i'm not trying to claim that Bruno is a bad fighter... Again, i was interested in how you would compare Big Frank to Trevor Berbick. I have a decent knowledge of Bruno, and do have most of his career...Therefore, i have seen more than just the Tyson fights. My opinion is that Bruno failed against quality opposition.
The Jumbo Cummings fight is a particular favourite. (Not that i rate Cummings as quality opposition). Bruno did well to get through that.

In future mate, PM me before making assumptions. This way i could have confirmed my Nationality, and given you my knowledge of Frank Bruno.

[Mike Tyson77]

Leaving aside you're belief in Tyson as the best ever (which I think by any OBJECTIVE standard is incorrect) I have to commend you on your loyalty to the fighter who got you into the sport. With the exception of the two fighters who trancended the sport, no one fighter is bigger than the sport itself. Creating a BOXING fan is the greatest gift a fighter can give his fan. You clearly recognize the debt of gratitude you have for Tyson making you a boxing fan and that's great! For me it was Ali then Holmes sealed the deal. For others of my generation it was Duran that tuned them into the sport. Maybe it will be Sam Peter that does it for this generation. Who knows?

Poet

The funny thing is that I never saw Tyson fight a live fight. I became a fan in November 2005 when I saw his fights from the 80's on ESPN classic.

My friend said I jumped on the Tyson bandwagon 20 years too late. LOL!

[potatoes]

If Mike Tyson had done what Cus D'Amato had taught him to do, it is unlikely he would have ever lost a fight. Would that have made him the greatest?

[chappie]

Hi everyone this is my first post. I was watching old Tyson tapes and i couldnt help but think to myself what would have happened if Cus never died, and rooney stayed as tysons trainer. It seemed that after rooney left tyson stoped training, thought he was unbeatable, partied way too much, and stop being the scientific fighter he once was. I was wondering if cus never died would mike tyson have gone down in history as the greatest heavyweight ever?? It seemed cus was the only one who could completely contol mike. If rooney stayed with tyson the only fighters that would have a chance in my opinion would have been Holyfeild or the late Foreman, maybe Riddock bowe, or Lennox Lewis?? Thoughts???

al though i'm from the old school, i do believe tyson in his prime would have beaten any heavyweight of any era. why do i believe this? not because of his power (there were plenty of power hitters)and not because of his speed(there were a few speedsters too) to me it was because for fighter that fought the "slugger" style, in his prime, tyson was extremely difficult to hit with a solid punch. that, along with his speed and power, to me, made him unbeatable. and people don't fool yourseleves, holyfield and lewis did not fight a prime mike tyson

[Poet682006]

al though i'm from the old school, i do believe tyson in his prime would have beaten any heavyweight of any era. why do i believe this? not because of his power (there were plenty of power hitters)and not because of his speed(there were a few speedsters too) to me it was because for fighter that fought the "slugger" style, in his prime, tyson was extremely difficult to hit with a solid punch. that, along with his speed and power, to me, made him unbeatable. and people don't fool yourseleves, holyfield and lewis did not fight a prime mike tyson

Don't fool yourself, Tyson didn't fight a "prime" Holyfield either. No he wasn't unbeatable, unless you're one these Tyson fans who try and pretend the Douglas fight never happend. As for Tyson's "great" defense it was a myth: His offense was his defence. Kind of hard to land a solid punch when you're a tomato can running for your fool life.

Poet

[Mike Tyson77]

As for Tyson's "great" defense it was a myth: His offense was his defence. Kind of hard to land a solid punch when you're a tomato can running for your fool life.

Poet

That's pretty much true. But you gotta admit, he could slip punches with the bob and weave defense. Then land a big counter shot. He did that in several fights. He also had a decent chin which aided him.

[Poet682006]

That's pretty much true. But you gotta admit, he could slip punches with the bob and weave defense. Then land a big counter shot. He did that in several fights. He also had a decent chin which aided him.

So could Frazier. You beat that by having a good jab. There just weren't quality jabbers in the division at the time Tyson was in his prime. Holmes made Tyson look foolish with his jab, but at 38 and over-the-hill he couldn't keep it up for more than a few seconds. In his prime Holmes could throw that jab all night long. The next time Tyson saw a jab like that was against Douglas. At lot of people put his vulnerability in that fight to the fact that he wasn't bobbing and weaving. Watch the first two rounds though, Tyson TRIED to bob and weave and Douglas wouldn't let him. Douglas would hammer Tyson with the jab everytime he tried to bob and weave and after a couple of rounds of that he gave it up. That's when Douglas started hitting him with lead rights.

Poet

[Mike Tyson77]

So could Frazier. You beat that by having a good jab. There just weren't quality jabbers in the division at the time Tyson was in his prime. Holmes made Tyson look foolish with his jab, but at 38 and over-the-hill he couldn't keep it up for more than a few seconds. In his prime Holmes could throw that jab all night long. The next time Tyson saw a jab like that was against Douglas. At lot of people put his vulnerability in that fight to the fact that he wasn't bobbing and weaving. Watch the first two rounds though, Tyson TRIED to bob and weave and Douglas wouldn't let him. Douglas would hammer Tyson with the jab everytime he tried to bob and weave and after a couple of rounds of that he gave it up. That's when Douglas started hitting him with lead rights.

Poet

Id like to hear your opinion Poet. Lets say Mike came into the Douglas fight with Rooney, and say Mike had trained hard like he did between 85'-88'. Do you think the outcome would have been different?

[Poet682006]

Id like to hear your opinion Poet. Lets say Mike came into the Douglas fight with Rooney, and say Mike had trained hard like he did between 85'-88'. Do you think the outcome would have been different?

Yes I do think it would be different. That being said I don't know nessacarily that he would have won the fight. Douglas fought the fight of his life that night and would have been tough to beat for anyone. The difference, I think, is that the fight wouldn't be a one-sided affair like it actually was. Instead I see a nip and tuck fight that goes to the cards with the 12th. round deciding things. All in all I think it would have made for a terrific fight.

Poet