apollocreed

Shane mosley was always over rated imo. He was good but not that good. He had power and speed, but his skills weren't anything brilliant. Tyson is a debate that we can never really answer - how good was prime tyson? By prime, you have to say when rooney left him and that he was already on the decline when he fought douglas. Personally, i think he was a bit over rated, but it's impossible to relly know. I think holyfield would have prob beaten him even in the late 80's, as holy was never scared of him, and fear was a big weapon in tyson's armoury.

chris john deserves an honourable mention too! i always forget about him! not in the top 10 unless he fights lopez or gamboa tho.

My List: 1 Manny Pacquiao 2 Floyd Mayweather 3 Sergio Martinez 4 Juan Manuel Marquez 5 Bernard Hopkins 6 Miguel Cotto 7 Jean Pascal 8 Yuriorkis Gamboa 9 Nonito Donaire 10 Chad Dawson Honourable mentions: Andre Ward, David Haye, Timothy Bradley, Wladimir Klitschko and Fernando Montiel

i have to agree with you there, afterall ll defeated these boxers; golota (at his prime) razor ruddock(who was favourite) frank bruno ray mercer evender holyfield (beat a prime evander twice) rahman vitali klitshcko tyson(shot to death though) tommy morrison he avenged both his losses and riddick bowe refused to fight him. exactly. Lewis beat everyone in his era apart from bowe, who he beat in the olympics, and bowed ducked him. Lewis also beat the likes of prime tua, prime briggs, prime mavrovic, and tony tucker. Loads of brit hating yanks still refute it, but he is def top 20 all time, maybe top 10. George foreman said he was one of the very best ever.

mosley no way - he was dominated by floyd, then drew with mora?? his days in the p4p 10 are over. apart from that pretty similar to mine, apart from i wouldn't have lopez in there either, i think he's over rated. i'd have jean pascal in there, plus maybe bradley and chad dawson. dawsons stock has plummeted since losing to pascal, but i think he will redeem himself. he didn't prepare properly and it was a close fight when it was stopped. i'd say b hop still deserves the benefit of the doubt atm, but we will see if he still deserves to be in there when he fights pascal.

yeah got massive respect for katsisis. he's a true warrior and a top guy. he was class before and after the fight when he came to England to fight mitchell. hope he goes on to the success he deserves.

i'm pretty sure sky said a few weeks ago they will be showing this. might have dreamt it tho...

lol this guy is clueless. it was a straightforward overarm hook - boxers have thrown this since boxing began!! its one of the most commonly thrown punches. tarver kocked out RJJ with one.

The judge that scored the fight 117-111 was the terrible ref that robbed Robin Reid in the Sven Ottke fight, guess who was Ottke's promoter? What a corrupt bastard that Roger Tilleman is. I think Kessler probably deserved the decision, but that cunts scoring was ridiculous. How is he still even employed in boxing after his performance in the Reid Ottke fight?? That guy represents the ugly side of boxing, he needs a good battering if u ask me.

Everyone mentioned already, esp got to big up the Brit boys froch and haye. One other guy who talks well I've got to say is tarver. His career seems tO have gone quiet now, but he was always fun to listen to and knew how to sell fights

i watched the fight twice with dukes commentary and he didn't even say anything that negative, he praised khan plenty of times. he just knows what he's talking about, and is hard to please. ive seen him do commentary on froch's last 4 fights, and he is far more critical of him. you can tell its nothing personal though, he just spots technical flaws in fighters, like froch's flaky defense and low left hand. i think khans a good fighter and want him to do well, but i have to say he reguarly comes across as a whiner. what does he want mckenzie to say - it was a performance worthy of ray leonard?? sorry amir, it was good, but not that good.

if it was cancelled, that would be poetic justice, because its ridiculous that the wbc made it a title fight

But he did, however, pick up the WBC/WBA/WBO titles (becomming lineal champ). Which is an accomplishment. Literally a textbook, written on paper, for the records accomplishment. dude, seriously don't waste your time debating on threads like this... it's full of klitschko obsessed haye haters... the thread was created by someone with the username 'vladisthechamp' ffs.... they all hate haye so much because he talked nasty about their mighty king, they can't acknowledge any of his achievements. i think adameks a good fighter, but it's pointless debating this because they will give haye absolutely no credit whatsoever.... the guy has even we-rote history by saying he avoided huck, guillermo jones etc... haye would have knocked them all out at CW if he stayed there.

i'm an amateur fighter. the mental side aspect is the most important in boxing. i see it as three aspects - technical (skills and talent which you are taught), physical (your strength, stamina, power, speed, fitness, speed etc which you improve with training), and the mental (your bravery, concentration, aggression, determination, motivation, calm under pressure etc. which has to come from inside yourself). if you have all 3 together at once, you are golden. however, if you have only one, you always need the mental aspect to succeed, so i'd choose that over the other two every time. a fighter who is fully focused mentally, but technically inferior to his opponent, beats a fighter who is talented and skilful but not mentally focused every time. without mental strength, you cannot succeed in boxing.

can't believe no one seemed to enjoy ward kovalev rematch as much as me - high stakes for LW supremacy, both p4p top 10, rematch with bad blood, and a great dramatic fight. the guy who had terrorized his weight division for past 4 years got broken down systematically. brook spence was high level entertaining fight as well.

Has he seen Fury's last 2 "fights"? Cuz if hi did, he wouldn't be saying that. btw, Lewis is just promoting his O2 event. Maybe he should be selling his BS stories to Americans. Oh, wait. Nobody cares about him in US, except when he spits krap over his UK countrymen. Hope O2 will be empty. Boxing fan all over the world listen to and respect Lewis, including in America. He was an ATG and beat everybody in his era, apart from Bowe who blatantly ducked hum. He wanted the Tyson fight years before Tyson finally agreed to it when he needed the money too.

That was my point. Lol OK cool.

Ehh, it's all subjective any way, we all have different criteria on p4p. I see it as different times, different eras. But the impact he had on the sport can't be denied; just look at the current state of affairs in regards to the Heavyweight division right now, it's lackluster and not that many people really gives a rats ass about it. The lower weights classes dominates now, today's Heavyweight division is irrelevant. You can't credit just Tyson with the impact his era had on the division either - the likes of Holyfield and Bowe made a big contribution to. The 90's was a way better era than the 00's and today for heavyweights, and Tyson, although he played his part, was never really number one at any point in the 90's, except from maybe when he was rated the top dog by many between prison and the first Holyfield loss.

Simple math. Is he better than 2 of his opponents he lost too (Holyfield, Lewis?) Is he better than one of the guys he defeated (Holmes?) That is four names right there. Tyson Holyfield Lewis Holmes Now just add ONE more elite heavyweight ... I don’t really get the point you’re making with the simple math, but in answer to both of your questions, no he was not better than Holyfield, Lewis or Holmes. Tyson fans who say Lewis can’t take credit for the Tyson victory, OK, but then Tyson can’t take credit for his victory over an out of shape, old Holmes either.

I think he's the best Heavyweight ever but the guy has a lot of haters and then you have the elitist fan mentality"hur durr Mike Tyson the best? You must be casual hur durr" bs. So it is what it is. Prime Mike Tyson beats any Heavyweight from any era except for the Super Heavyweights - Lennox Lewis, Vlad and Vitali Klitschko. You don't give any justificaton for that claim though - just 'well that's what I think and that's it'. Whereas me and other posters have laid out clear and factual reasoning why he isn't top 5.

I don't think he's even top 10, definitely not top 5. He was a mentally weak guy who was raised by Cus D' Amatao to have a bullies mentality - he was taught to intimidate opponents before fights even started, but when he couldn't do that, he quickly unraveled and lost confidence. He was also one dimensional because he was short for a HW, and was only capable of fighting coming forwards. Guys with good boxing skills could control him because of this (they'd have to have a good chin and be brave though). Who did he even beat at his peak in the 80's? Holmes was way past his best, Spinks was absolutely terrified before the fight started. Holyfield and Douglas couldn't be intimidated though like that though. Ali, Lewis, Louis, Holyfield, Frazier all better for a start. Then you have likes of Foreman, Holmes (when he was Champion) the list can go on with the likes of Marciano and others who have a strong case to be better than Tyson.

He beat two greats in Holmes and Spinks and lost to two greats in Lewis and Holyfield. Tyson lost to Lewis because Lewis was so much more bigger than him. Tyson's a Heavyweight (220) and a short one at that. Lennox Lewis, on the other hand, is a Super Heavyweight (250). I keep telling folks that's a whole new weight class that Mike had to go up against. During his comeback/post-prison, Mike regained the titles and ran out of opponents so boxing's PTB bring in a former Cruiserweight, Holyfield, to challenge him; shoot his ass up with roids Bain style (look up the Evan Fields controversy) and loses to a juice head. Even than, a roided Holyfield still couldn't KO Mike completely. The Douglas loss was when Mike was at his lowest - he fired most his team, didn't train for that fight, he was partying and high on drugs and hooked up with the infamous and shady Don King who was know for bribing and fixing fights. Sorry but you Tyson fans have an endless list of excuses which you always reel off - D Amato dying, King, Givens, long count v Douglas, women, money, prison, drugs, Holyfield headbutts, now steroids ..... It goes on forever. You can’t accept anything isn’t down to bad luck, like his life story is some mythic Greek tragedy. In reality he was good, just not as good as you love to believe. Douglas fought brilliantly that night and kicked his ass. I think Douglas that night would have given major problems to any version of Tyson. Also, those two big wins of his - Holmes was way past his best and very rusty, and Spinks was really a blown up light heavy who was terrified before the fight started. Tyson relied heavily on intimidation, but against Holyfield he couldn’t do that, Evander was smiling and singing during his ring walk.

But Bruno did make l Lennox look average for a while and he beat Oliver McCall who beat lennox FFS, Bruno had a few good rounds against Lewis, then got brutally stopped. This was a long time before Lewis matured and reached his peak too. Lewis was still by far the better man on the night. According to your logic, Khan was capable of beating Canelo because he had a few good rounds. Bruno was nowhere near as good as Lewis, he was barely world class. Just give it up.

This. Tyson's problem was he peaked at 22 years old and then his lifestyle and the issues he had outside the ring led to his highly honed technique eroding. Anyone who thinks Holyfield or Lewis would beat a prime Tyson is deluded. Lewis especially beat a drug-addicted shell of Tyson and that shouldn't even count as a victory IMO. It's like saying Camacho is better than Ray Leonard when we all know what would happen if that fight happened a decade earlier. Everyone knows Tyson was just fighting for money when Lewis beat him, but the fact that fight didn’t happen until ‘02 was down to Tyson avoiding fighting Lewis. Lewis was paid step aside money by King in ‘96, and then Tyson gave up the WBC title because Lewis was mandatory. Lewis wanted the fight from the early 90’s, but first prison, then Tyson’s ducking in favour of fighting bums prevented it.

This. Tyson's problem was he peaked at 22 years old and then his lifestyle and the issues he had outside the ring led to his highly honed technique eroding. Anyone who thinks Holyfield or Lewis would beat a prime Tyson is deluded. Lewis especially beat a drug-addicted shell of Tyson and that shouldn't even count as a victory IMO. It's like saying Camacho is better than Ray Leonard when we all know what would happen if that fight happened a decade earlier. Prime Lewis (late 90’s) or prime Holyfield (89 to 93 or even 96 - 97) would beat prime Tyson. What were Tyson’s big wins in his prime anyway? His biggest wins over Holmes and Spinks aren’t even that impressive when you look at them more closely - Holmes was very rusty after a long time out of the ring and way past his best, and Spinks was a blown up light heavy who was terrified. I think you could seriously argue that Tyson’s wins over a prime Ruddock were more impressive than those two.

No more excuses Sign to fight wilder you coward Hahaha you've changed your tune from a couple of months ago! Sign to fight Wilder you coward? You were a fully paid up Matchroom groupie last time I checked. Finally seen sense eh? Idiots can learn I guess.

Lololololol. You brainwashed him ,you Donald trumped him Haha! The smaller the brain, the easier it is

Acrimony or not - the question still stands: Eubank Jr appears to have all a fighter needs in order to succeed at the highest level. So is his Dad a bad influence on him, Is there relationship holding Jr back somehow, OR is Jr so arrogant that he listens to no one, believing he doesn't need help? This is the second time Jr has been exposed by a better boxer. Saunders and Groves are not even close to the best boxers in the world, so Jr obviously either needs to improve his boxing skills or dedicate himself to becoming a pressure fighter. He supposedly trains all year round and is in great condition all the time, but I'm still bewildered by his move up to 168 that was sudden and inexplicable. He hasn't got everything a fighter needs to be a success, because he's missing the most important ingredient - good fundamentals. They are the base on which everything else is supposed to be built on - good footwork, balance, control of distance and ability to jab. You're supposed to learn them as an amateur before you turn pro, so they are ingrained as good habits. Eubank Jr skipped a proper amateur schooling because he was so arrogant he thought he didn't need one. At 28 going on 29, it's very late for him to change his bad habits now. He's likely to be stuck in his ways. Poor footwork and balance is why it's so easy for good boxers like Groves and Saunders to out box him. All styles of fighters should have good fundamentals, including pressure fighters. Even guys like Ricky Hatton had decent footwork and balance.

it just seems most fighters and media in the UK don’t like the Eubanks because of their arrogance and just want to kick them when their down No shame in losing to BJS & Groves both have proved to be top shelf fighters I'd have a lot more time for him if he wasn't such a fraud in terms of him and his Dad saying he was a combination of Roy Jones and James Toney who was going to the top of the p4p list, and could beat Ward and GGG. Also the way he built up a following of clueless casual fans who actually believed them that he was world class, on the back of his endless instagram videos and a load of hand picked opponents. They brought all the flack on themselves, I've listened to them clearly talk **** about him being a world beater for the last 6 years - all the time I could see he was nothing special. If they had just said he had potential and still had to work on his skills, I wouldn't find them so insufferable.

I was talking about that poster you were quoting. You hurt my feeling for no reason. Aaah. Hahaha sorry man, now i feel like a prick. My bad, that's my tendency to fly off the handle resurfacing! Sorry man, I've been arguing with Eubank Jr. fans all week on youtube about tomorrow night and it's obviously got to me, I'm wound pretty tight right now! Well that was meant for him anyway, he does seem like a dick! Peace!