Why all the hate for Cotto?

[S. Saddler 1310]

a novice fan....

im sorry but even in his biggest wins quartey and wright were close....

consider the caliber of fighters. Quintana could have blown Julio away in a round and that still wouldn't have been equal to a close win over Quartey. Williams over Wright, given what Wright went on to prove, are you serious?

all im saying is quintanas resume of WINS is equal to vargas....

but it is not equal. and that position is not defensible. the quality of comp is calibers apart. this is what you are refusing to compute.

we can argue all day about all the fights vargas lost... it doesnt change the fact those were his two biggest wins....

i'm not arguing about the fights Vargas lost. he lost them, and put up creditable showings against very high level guys.

you can't change the fact that those two biggest wins are better than anything Quintana has ever done or ever will do, by a considerable margin.

and i think beating two young undefeated fighters in williams and julio is at least equivalent.

it isn't. Julio? are you serious? Williams is up there with prime Wright to you? let's not forget that Quintana got smoked against Williams (who was yet to peak) second go around.

i'm not a guy who leans on the consensus ordinarily, but you are so blatantly off base in this instance that i had to poll our little debate.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584998

Quintana is Vargas? lmao, the position is ludicrous and not even vaguely defensible.

[Rome-By-Ko]

all that guy debates with is numbers and stats, which are often misleading.

for the record, better 'accomplishments' aside, i think you can make a strong case for Cotto having the superior body of work over Martinez. who has the better individual win or better standout wins is more arguable - indeed, i may lean toward Martinez on close analysis. ultimately, i don't think Martinez is significantly above Cotto in legacy terms, if at all. we'll see what they each do next.

this is the thing about 'accomplishments'.

if guy A is #1 in a weak divisional era, does that mean he has a better body of work or is truly greater than guy B who fought in a notably stronger era for that division and was a close #2 (behind a chief rival who ranked among the truly elite of the time)? guy A may have been more accomplished in a purely superficial, titular sense, but was his run as substantial as guy B's?

I agree that Martinez is not far ahead of Cotto,in terms of depth of resume..But overall I have to view him as the better fighter for what he's accomplished and tbh how he's accomplished it..Not to mention he has fought tough fighters(contenders)at his weight..While Cotto fought guys like Jennings(was not a real contender)Foreman(belt or not very weak comp)Mayorga(I mean come on)Gomez..Why not the Berto's(who held a belt back then)Karass or even the Mike Jones of the div??

I think Cotto has had the fighters around his weight to help his legacy..But he lost to all of the ones that could have put him over the top..A win over Marga's would have sent Cotto into another level in his career(yes the first fight between Cotto and Marga's)but he did not capture it..He lost to Pac and Mayweather,not to mention he lost the respect fight at 154lb..Cause that's what that fight with Trout was all about..Showing if Cotto could beat a real contender at 154lb..The answer was no..

Overall like I said I totally agree with you about how Martinez and Cotto resume and legacy measure up..But I give a slight lead to Martinez,being the fact he is the Champion at 160lbs..I also believe we have to grade fighters fairly..Fighters who are fighting now are dealing with a lot of different things that fighters of old was not dealing with..Like having a thousand belts and promoters who will build up a fighter on hype and not on merit...Now while this is not that new,it's far more excepted nowa days...I rate Cotto and Martinez as top fighters of their time..When it's time both will be HOF fighters imo..Both will also deserve it...

[S. Saddler 1310]

I agree that Martinez is not far ahead of Cotto,in terms of depth of resume..But overall I have to view him as the better fighter for what he's accomplished and tbh how he's accomplished it..Not to mention he has fought tough fighters(contenders)at his weight..While Cotto fought guys like Jennings(was not a real contender)Foreman(belt or not very weak comp)Mayorga(I mean come on)Gomez..Why not the Berto's(who held a belt back then)Karass or even the Mike Jones of the div??

i hear you on all of the bold. Jennings was UK domestic level (Euro at best), Foreman was one of the more deeply mediocre paper titlists of the last decade (worth a Darren Barker, though), Mayorga was doner than done (Sergio hasn't sunk that low yet, lol), Gomez was, well, Gomez (honestly, about as solid as a guy like Macklin, ie. could do just as well in a WW division that is as weak as the MW division Matthew is in).

i'd long been one of the biggest critics of Cotto's 154 resume prior to the Trout fight, amid longrunning claims that he was JMW's #1. i felt he was all smoke and mirrors at 154lb and i expected he'd be exposed as just a middling contender at the weight when he stepped up to the top guys at the weight. 18 months or so ago, people scoffed when i picked guys like Kirkland and Wolak to beat him down and guys like Trout (and even possibly Delvin) to outbox him. now more people realize they'd been seeing the emperor's new clothes, so to speak, although the Cotto diehards still think he's great and have excuses ready for his every failing.

but for Martinez, Barker (British/Euro level) and Macklin (and now Murray) are really not strong comp. Dzinzi coming up was not a shameful opponent, but not especially creditable at 160, given he only had a decent run at 154, not the kind of run that stood out. and so i come to restate that Martinez has been presiding over a weak MW era, where a guy like Macklin can stand out to a degree and a guy like Chavez is a beast on the back of wins over guys like Andy Lee and Rubio (and that latter win wasn't even especially convincing), lol. it's a qualitatively mediocre division, even while being interesting for its wealth of competitive potential, and Martinez took his Championship from a badly jaded Pavlik who was horrendously regressed from the fighter of a few years prior (honestly, so many nuances had left Pavlik's game by then, he was a shell).

so you don't have to convince me of Cotto's failings. i'm with you there. but, at the same time, i do think Martinez' resume and accomplishments flatter to deceive somewhat.

and that's my reasoning in some more detail. factoring everything in, while he has superficially better accomplishments, i can't really hold Martinez much above Cotto, if at all.

I think Cotto has had the fighters around his weight to help his legacy..But he lost to all of the ones that could have put him over the top..A win over Marga's would have sent Cotto into another level in his career(yes the first fight between Cotto and Marga's)but he did not capture it..He lost to Pac and Mayweather,not to mention he lost the respect fight at 154lb..Cause that's what that fight was all about..Showing if Cotto could beat a real contender at 154lb..The answer was no..

Overall like I said I totally agree with you about how Martinez and Cotto resume and legacy measure up..But I give a slight lead to Martinez,being the fact he is the Champion at 160lbs..I also believe we have to grade fighters fairly..Fighters who are fighting now are dealing with a lot of different things that fighters of old was not dealing with..Like having a thousand belts and promoters who will build up a fighter on hype and not on merit...Now while this is not that new,it's far more excepted nowa days...I rate Cotto and Martinez as top fighters of their time..When it's time both will be HOF fighters imo..Both will also deserve it...

if by "top", you mean elite, i have to call it into question. "of their time", that may be true, but that would just speak to the relative mediocrity of their time. in the realest sense of the term, i don't think either has proven themselves elite.

as for Cotto vs. Martinez, legacy-wise. i believe both fighters are on a similar level, more or less, neither being elite, and i'm not particularly a huge fan of either, so i wouldn't go all-out to break down every nuance and try to reach a definitive conclusion. if a fellow thinks either of those men has a better legacy than the other, i wouldn't go to any lengths to conclusively disprove him.

[billeau2]

why the hell not? was Vargas some world beater ? no he wasnt.... i think we're talking about a different Fernando Vargas.... i know boxing fans like to rewrite history but vargas wasnt a great fighter.


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But....take Cotto with a few more **** ups and perhaps a little more impusivity and you basically have a Nando! seriously these guys have a very similar trajectory and skill level really. I like Cotto a lot more but both guys were going to be savoirs for their people and both guys never quite lived up to the hype

[UrDazed]

I think Cotto has a better overall resume,but better 140lb resume??No way bro,Hatton was the Champ at 140lb..Which smashes anything Cotto did there..Hatton's resume is not that bad..

loving that mosley/dlh gif, R. May i ask where you got it?

[S. Saddler 1310]

I like Cotto a lot more but both guys were going to be savoirs for their people and both guys never quite lived up to the hype

at last. a Cotto fan with an honest, realistic take on the guy.

[Rome-By-Ko]

loving that mosley/dlh gif, R. May i ask where you got it?

Made it myself..

[Rome-By-Ko]

i hear you on all of the bold. Jennings was UK domestic level (Euro at best), Foreman was one of the more deeply mediocre paper titlists of the last decade (worth a Darren Barker, though), Mayorga was doner than done (Sergio hasn't sunk that low yet, lol), Gomez was, well, Gomez (honestly, about as solid as a guy like Macklin, ie. could do just as well in a WW division that is as weak as the MW division Matthew is in).

i'd long been one of the biggest critics of Cotto's 154 resume prior to the Trout fight, amid longrunning claims that he was JMW's #1. i felt he was all smoke and mirrors at 154lb and i expected he'd be exposed as just a middling contender at the weight when he stepped up to the top guys at the weight. 18 months or so ago, people scoffed when i picked guys like Kirkland and Wolak to beat him down and guys like Trout (and even possibly Delvin) to outbox him. now more people realize they'd been seeing the emperor's new clothes, so to speak, although the Cotto diehards still think he's great and have excuses ready for his every failing.

but for Martinez, Barker (British/Euro level) and Macklin (and now Murray) are really not strong comp. Dzinzi coming up was not a shameful opponent, but not especially creditable at 160, given he only had a decent run at 154, not the kind of run that stood out. and so i come to restate that Martinez has been presiding over a weak MW era, where a guy like Macklin can stand out to a degree and a guy like Chavez is a beast on the back of wins over guys like Andy Lee and Rubio (and that latter win wasn't even especially convincing), lol. it's a qualitatively mediocre division, even while being interesting for its wealth of competitive potential, and Martinez took his Championship from a badly jaded Pavlik who was horrendously regressed from the fighter of a few years prior (honestly, so many nuances had left Pavlik's game by then, he was a shell).

so you don't have to convince me of Cotto's failings. i'm with you there. but, at the same time, i do think Martinez' resume and accomplishments flatter to deceive somewhat.

and that's my reasoning in some more detail. factoring everything in, while he has superficially better accomplishments, i can't really hold Martinez much above Cotto, if at all.




if by "top", you mean elite, i have to call it into question. "of their time", that may be true, but that would just speak to the relative mediocrity of their time. in the realest sense of the term, i don't think either has proven themselves elite.

as for Cotto vs. Martinez, legacy-wise. i believe both fighters are on a similar level, more or less, neither being elite, and i'm not particularly a huge fan of either, so i wouldn't go all-out to break down every nuance and try to reach a definitive conclusion. if a fellow thinks either of those men has a better legacy than the other, i wouldn't go to any lengths to conclusively disprove him.

Great post..I don't know if I agree with everything in it..But I can respect it,top post bro..

[LEFTYGUNZZ]

Mosley was on a 6 fight winstreak heading in to their bout... his last loss coming outside of his natural weightclass to winky wright... floyd and manny hold wins over shane....however those wins were 3 and 4 years after cottos...respectively


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Look who he won those titles against though and they was virtually all vacant

nobody "hates" him, hes just overrated as fuck by his ****** fans.

I did not read through the whole thread so please forgive me if I am redundant and say or point out something that someone might have sad already.

I too used to give Cotto a lot of crap in the past, then I realized something. I realized that some of the most competitive and entertaining fight I have seen in the past 4-6 years he has been involved in most. Say what you want about vacant titles, easy matches or past their prime opponents but Cotto has fought everyone Arum or his promoters put in front of him.

Mosely vs Cotto
Margarito vs Cotto 1
Margarito vs Cotto 2
Judah vs Cotto
Malinaggi vs Cotto
Clottey vs Cotto

all great fights all very close and very entertaining.....what makes Cotto so special is that he is not perfect and can be hurt. He has a lot of heart and fights with pride. I don't know too many fighters that have been in wars with the class of opponents Cotto has in the small time period in which he fought all those tough fights. Even his fight with the Rabbi in MSG was a tough match until the Rabbi hurt his leg. Give credit where credit is do and Cotto deserves his credit fr giving boxing sme awesome events over the past years.....GuNzZ

[thatdudespits]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

a novice fan....

im sorry but even in his biggest wins quartey and wright were close....

consider the caliber of fighters. Quintana could have blown Julio away in a round and that still wouldn't have been equal to a close win over Quartey. Williams over Wright, given what Wright went on to prove, are you serious?


Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

all im saying is quintanas resume of WINS is equal to vargas....

but it is not equal. and that position is not defensible. the quality of comp is calibers apart. this is what you are refusing to compute.


Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

we can argue all day about all the fights vargas lost... it doesnt change the fact those were his two biggest wins....

i'm not arguing about the fights Vargas lost. he lost them, and put up creditable showings against very high level guys.

you can't change the fact that those two biggest wins are better than anything Quintana has ever done or ever will do, by a considerable margin.


Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

and i think beating two young undefeated fighters in williams and julio is at least equivalent.

it isn't. Julio? are you serious? Williams is up there with prime Wright to you? let's not forget that Quintana got smoked against Williams (who was yet to peak) second go around.

i'm not a guy who leans on the consensus ordinarily, but you are so blatantly off base in this instance that i had to poll our little debate.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=584998

Quintana is Vargas? lmao, the position is ludicrous and not even vaguely defensible.

you still fail to explain what makes vargas so great...

last i remember paul williams holds a win over winky wright.... as well as wins over sergio martinez, antonio margarito....

and quintana losing the second time around doesnt change the fact that quintana won handily the first fight....

BTW julio was a huge undefeated prospect at the time... so it was a really big win.

keep trying to make vargas sound great


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