Why all the hate for Cotto?

[S. Saddler 1310]

you still fail to explain what makes vargas so great...

i've told you time and again why Vargas >>>>> Quintana, you just fail to compute it.

the. level. of. the. guys. he. beat. and. competed. with.

Vargas was competitive with prime Trinidad and DLH, plus he beat Quartey and Wright. Quintana took Julio's '0' and outpointed a pre-peak Williams before being destroyed quickly in the rematch. against Cotto, Quintana had been steamrolled and had quit in 5 rounds. Cotto went on to fall badly short against elite opposition and struggle with sub-elite opposition. we're talking about whole different leagues here. Cotto, Quintana, Julio, Williams are not on a level with Vargas, Quartey, Wright, DLH, Tito.

there is no sane argument for Quintana being equivalent to Vargas. none.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584998

last i remember paul williams holds a win over winky wright.... as well as wins over sergio martinez, antonio margarito....and quintana losing the second time around doesnt change the fact that quintana won handily the first fight....

Peter Quillin holds a win over Winky, too. you see what i'm saying? does it need to be spelled out? Williams' win over Martinez was rather contested, which i wouldn't count against him so much had he not been blown away in the rematch. his win over Antonio Margarito is a very solid win. Williams wasn't at the peak of his development when Quintana fought him, there were still signs of greenness in him, he started sitting down on his shots more after that fight (which we saw when he KO'd Quintana early) - that said, it's a solid win for Quintana, but it's not on a par with a win over prime Wright, sorry. and, while Quintana losing second time around in the manner he did doesn't erase his victory in the first fight, it does counteract it to a degree and does impact how one assesses Quintana as a fighter and therefore how much esteem Cotto should receive for beating him. was Vargas ever destroyed in a round by a non-elite fighter?

Julio is nothing like as good a win as Quartey, not even remotely. why, oh why, would you even go there?

BTW julio was a huge undefeated prospect at the time... so it was a really big win.

undefeated means nothing. even worse that he was an 'undefeated prospect', which translates to 'completely unproven fighter'. Julio had done nothing significant and went on to do nothing significant, relatively speaking. beating him does not constitute "really big" at all. you're seriously putting Julio on a level with Quartey?

keep trying to make vargas sound great

it seems to me that you're the guy who is trying to argue greatness for a fighter who hasn't achieved greatness (Cotto).

worse than that, you're trying to make a win over Joel Julio sound great.

claiming that a win over Julio is as good as a win over Quartey =

[thatdudespits]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rome-By-Ko

I agree that Martinez is not far ahead of Cotto,in terms of depth of resume..But overall I have to view him as the better fighter for what he's accomplished and tbh how he's accomplished it..Not to mention he has fought tough fighters(contenders)at his weight.. While Cotto fought guys like Jennings(was not a real contender)Foreman(belt or not very weak comp)Mayorga(I mean come on)Gomez..Why not the Berto's(who held a belt back then)Karass or even the Mike Jones of the div??

i hear you on all of the bold. Jennings was UK domestic level (Euro at best), Foreman was one of the more deeply mediocre paper titlists of the last decade (worth a Darren Barker, though), Mayorga was doner than done (Sergio hasn't sunk that low yet, lol), Gomez was, well, Gomez (honestly, about as solid as a guy like Macklin, ie. could do just as well in a WW division that is as weak as the MW division Matthew is in).

i'd long been one of the biggest critics of Cotto's 154 resume prior to the Trout fight, amid longrunning claims that he was JMW's #1. i felt he was all smoke and mirrors at 154lb and i expected he'd be exposed as just a middling contender at the weight when he stepped up to the top guys at the weight. 18 months or so ago, people scoffed when i picked guys like Kirkland and Wolak to beat him down and guys like Trout (and even possibly Delvin) to outbox him. now more people realize they'd been seeing the emperor's new clothes, so to speak, although the Cotto diehards still think he's great and have excuses ready for his every failing.

but for Martinez, Barker (British/Euro level) and Macklin (and now Murray) are really not strong comp. Dzinzi coming up was not a shameful opponent, but not especially creditable at 160, given he only had a decent run at 154, not the kind of run that stood out. and so i come to restate that Martinez has been presiding over a weak MW era, where a guy like Macklin can stand out to a degree and a guy like Chavez is a beast on the back of wins over guys like Andy Lee and Rubio (and that latter win wasn't even especially convincing), lol. it's a qualitatively mediocre division, even while being interesting for its wealth of competitive potential, and Martinez took his Championship from a badly jaded Pavlik who was horrendously regressed from the fighter of a few years prior (honestly, so many nuances had left Pavlik's game by then, he was a shell).

so you don't have to convince me of Cotto's failings. i'm with you there. but, at the same time, i do think Martinez' resume and accomplishments flatter to deceive somewhat.

and that's my reasoning in some more detail. factoring everything in, while he has superficially better accomplishments, i can't really hold Martinez much above Cotto, if at all.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Rome-By-Ko

I think Cotto has had the fighters around his weight to help his legacy..But he lost to all of the ones that could have put him over the top..A win over Marga's would have sent Cotto into another level in his career(yes the first fight between Cotto and Marga's)but he did not capture it..He lost to Pac and Mayweather,not to mention he lost the respect fight at 154lb..Cause that's what that fight was all about..Showing if Cotto could beat a real contender at 154lb..The answer was no..

Overall like I said I totally agree with you about how Martinez and Cotto resume and legacy measure up..But I give a slight lead to Martinez,being the fact he is the Champion at 160lbs..I also believe we have to grade fighters fairly..Fighters who are fighting now are dealing with a lot of different things that fighters of old was not dealing with..Like having a thousand belts and promoters who will build up a fighter on hype and not on merit...Now while this is not that new,it's far more excepted nowa days...I rate Cotto and Martinez as top fighters of their time..When it's time both will be HOF fighters imo..Both will also deserve it...

if by "top", you mean elite, i have to call it into question. "of their time", that may be true, but that would just speak to the relative mediocrity of their time. in the realest sense of the term, i don't think either has proven themselves elite.

as for Cotto vs. Martinez, legacy-wise. i believe both fighters are on a similar level, more or less, neither being elite, and i'm not particularly a huge fan of either, so i wouldn't go all-out to break down every nuance and try to reach a definitive conclusion. if a fellow thinks either of those men has a better legacy than the other, i wouldn't go to any lengths to conclusively disprove him.

I commend you on your breaking down of Martinez resume....

however I agree that Cotto's wins over Foreman, Jennings are nothing to boast about... every great fighter has some ****ty wins on their resume, including Pacquiao and Mayweather... Cotto in my opinion just has far fewer lame victories than most.... Martinez has made a career at middleweight facing taller slower footed fighters (mostly european) that really have no chance of beating him.... thats quite different from Cotto who holds wins over 6 different undefeated fighters, and also holds wins over Joshua Clottey, Antonio Margarito, Carlos Quintana, Shane Mosley, Zab Judah (who apparently is still a viable opponent today, 6 years later), Paulie Malignaggi (current champ at 147)... Miguel Cotto's and Sergio Martinez' resumes are not comparable to say the least... im not arguing with numbers... these are facts.

and to give Cotto **** for losing to a shady fighter in a fight he was winning... i mean really? getting hit with plaster is not an excuse its a crime...

you dont see me *****ing about the Pacquiao fight..

but I think the man deserves a pass for Margarito I, as do most....

not considering Cotto elite leaves us with how many elite welterweights over the past decade? 2? it just doesnt make sense.... Cotto was clearly at least the 3rd greatest welterweight of the past decade.... how is that not elite?


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[The Surgeon]

Whats not to like? In the ring he fights with class, style and heart. He always puts on a show and is highly entertaining, a throwback who faced the best of his generation in some of the biggest fights.
Outside the ring perhaps he's not everybody's cup of tea but i like him, he is a class act who respects his opponents and dont talk ****. He seems quite a reserved private guy, a family man.

[thatdudespits]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

you still fail to explain what makes vargas so great...

i've told you time and again why Vargas >>>>> Quintana, you just fail to compute it.

the. level. of. the. guys. he. beat. and. competed. with.

Vargas was competitive with prime Trinidad and DLH, plus he beat Quartey and Wright. Quintana took Julio's '0' and outpointed a pre-peak Williams before being destroyed quickly in the rematch. against Cotto, Quintana had been steamrolled and had quit in 5 rounds. Cotto went on to fall badly short against elite opposition and struggle with sub-elite opposition. we're talking about whole different leagues here. Cotto, Quintana, Julio, Williams are not on a level with Vargas, Quartey, Wright, DLH, Tito.

there is no sane argument for Quintana being equivalent to Vargas. none.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=584998

Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

last i remember paul williams holds a win over winky wright.... as well as wins over sergio martinez, antonio margarito....and quintana losing the second time around doesnt change the fact that quintana won handily the first fight....

Peter Quillin holds a win over Winky, too. you see what i'm saying? does it need to be spelled out? Williams' win over Martinez was rather contested, which i wouldn't count against him so much had he not been blown away in the rematch. his win over Antonio Margarito is a very solid win. Williams wasn't at the peak of his development when Quintana fought him, there were still signs of greenness in him, he started sitting down on his shots more after that fight (which we saw when he KO'd Quintana early) - that said, it's a solid win for Quintana, but it's not on a par with a win over prime Wright, sorry. and, while Quintana losing second time around in the manner he did doesn't erase his victory in the first fight, it does counteract it to a degree and does impact how one assesses Quintana as a fighter and therefore how much esteem Cotto should receive for beating him. was Vargas ever destroyed in a round by a non-elite fighter?

Julio is nothing like as good a win as Quartey, not even remotely. why, oh why, would you even go there?


Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

BTW julio was a huge undefeated prospect at the time... so it was a really big win.

undefeated means nothing. even worse that he was an 'undefeated prospect', which translates to 'completely unproven fighter'. Julio had done nothing significant and went on to do nothing significant, relatively speaking. beating him does not constitute "really big" at all. you're seriously putting Julio on a level with Quartey?


Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

keep trying to make vargas sound great

it seems to me that you're the guy who is trying to argue greatness for a fighter who hasn't achieved greatness (Cotto).

worse than that, you're trying to make a win over Joel Julio sound great.

claiming that a win over Julio is as good as a win over Quartey =

For the record... Ike's biggest win is a loss to DLH... his other big win...not so big over Espana, a guy who beat Meldrick Taylor post chavez... i think Quartey was a very good fighter... but not great.

you cant compare williams beating wright... to quillen beating a 3 years inactive wright... thats just silly.

Vargas was an alright fighter who had an extra helping of heart and a big mouth that got him some big fights.

People seem to forget that most were picking Quintana to beat Cotto... especially in Puerto Rico... Quintana was a slick slippery southpaw with power.

Vargas is right there if you want to hit him.

and what is polling supposed to do?

its almost impossible for a current fighter to get a fair shake against a legend of the past...


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[thatdudespits]

"the truth is the truth, the sky is too big for me to cover it" - Angel Garcia


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[Da Boxer]

The man is a 4 time 3 division world champion...
He carries himself like a gentleman...
Why so much hate?

We have ridiculous posters on here saying that Sergio Martinez has accomplished more in his career than Miguel Cotto...

Lets debunk this myth right now

Sergio Martinez (50-2-2 28KOs)

Record in title fights- 6-0 4KOs

World Champions faced- 6

Turned Pro in 97'


Miguel Angel Cotto (37-4-0 30KOs)

Record in title fights- 17-4 14KOs

World champions faced- 17

Turned Pro in 01'


Truth is Martinez hasnt accomplished a fourth of what Cotto has in his career

Let's take it a step further .... how about Marquez?

Juan Manuel Marquez (54-6-1 39KOs)

Record in title fights 10-4-1 4KOs

World champions faced- 14

how does he stack up against Mayweather and Pacquiao? Quite well actually...

Manny Pacquiao (54-4-2 38KOs)

Record in title fights- 16-2-2 11KOs

World champs faced - 17

Floyd Mayweather (43-0 26KOs)

record in title fights- 19-0 9 KOs

World champs faced- 17

surely Cottos best is behind him, but....
for those who say Cotto was never elite.... well then what was he?

Green K and a a 3B+ donation for laying down some facts.

[S. Saddler 1310]

For the record... Ike's biggest win is a loss to DLH...

did you actually watch the fight? if you think Vargas' win over Wright is questionable, you should be outright shunning the verdict in the DLH-Quartey fight. Quartey should have been given a clear decision over Oscar. when has Joel Julio even been in a ring with a guy of DLH's class, and how do you believe he would fare if he had?

look, it's plain as day that Vargas >>>>> Quintana. i've stated why it's plain as day and your mind refuses to compute it because it doesn't want to. i'm done with that convo.



btw, no, i don't think Cotto deserves a pass for Margarito I. nor should anyone if they actually stepped away from the hysteria and looked at the specifics. Margarito was found to have trace amounts of calcium and sulphur in his gauzes. yes, he was suspended on that administrative, bureaucratic technicality, but no conspiracy to assault charges were pressed, as surely would have been had he been carrying a weapon more deadly than his fists in his gloves. calcium and sulphur does not = calcium sulphate hemihydrate (plaster of paris), which is a compound made by heating gypsum. calcium and sulphur are not a compound, they are calcium and sulphur. also, the alleged tell-tale crack on Tony's wraps was proven to be nothing more sinister than a black thread. also, he went a whole career doing damage to guys, tearing off their ears, beating them up, and was never found to have been carrying anything illegal in all the times his wraps were inspected leading up to the night in January 2009 (Emanuel Steward, the esteemed HOF trainer, observed them before the Cintron rematch and saw nothing untoward), which would be some lucky feat if he'd been cheating all that time (and if the claim is that he only started cheating later in his career, how does one explain the damage he'd inflicted on prior opponents)? and last but not least, LVSAC (under whose rules Tony and Cotto fought) are known to provide the gauzes and tape to fighters and their trainers.

Cotto lost, fair and square, to a guy he was expected to outclass. Cotto was overhyped and remains overrated by fellows like you who can't let go of the expectations they had for him and have to make excuses to rationalize his failures to themselves and everyone else. you are intellectually insincere, sir.

[S. Saddler 1310]

"the truth is the truth, the sky is too big for me to cover it" - Angel Garcia

you can't handle the truth. you and the rest of the Cotto diehards.

[thatdudespits]

[quote=S. Saddler 1310] Quote:

Originally Posted by thatdudespits

"the truth is the truth, the sky is too big for me to cover it" - Angel Garcia

you can't handle the truth. you and the rest of the Cotto diehards. [/quote


im a Cotto fan... im a fan of many fighters... but im a fan of boxing first... i only give my opinion based on facts and history.... no matter how unpopular it is...


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[A-Wolf]

At one point it seemed like they were putting up a belt every time Cotto fought. I wouldn't try and hang my hat on his "championships." The guy is a great fighter but this Trout type stuff would have come to him much much sooner in his career had it not been for Bobby Arum and Brucey Trampler.